Teaching First Aid

[BSA470Firstaider]

I have a question to pose to everyone in this forum. I have an ASM who while I was teaching first aid stopped me and "corrected me" using the scout handbook, telling me BSA is right and I am wrong. What would you do? The first aid mb book tells you in the instructors note to use the newest information. Do you use the newest or the book I teach both and explain where SBA is wrong/outdated.

 

YIS,

 

-Jeff

[AggieScouter]

Seems to me that the Red Cross updates more frequently than the BSA. You could explain the way that the BSA describes it, but then add on the "current best practices" from the Red Cross.

[Bob White]

What level of first aid were you teaching?

If you were working with new scouts I would say stick to the methods in the current handbook that they are required to know for advancement.

 

If you are acting as a merit badge counselor I would say teach what the MB handbook tells you to do.

 

If you were just asked to teach first aid in general I would recommend you ask the person who arranged for you to present, to give you some direction as to the audiences needs and expectations so that you can share the appropriate information.

[BSA470Firstaider]

I am teaching first years, but my objection is I that BSA varies so greatly from the current accepted standard. Point of reference snake bite BSA mentions nothing about wrapping the bitten are to slow blood circulation and there are many others. As a medic is it really in my best intrest to teach a group of scouts who someday may use this to save someones life the wrong thing?

[Eamonn]

Your profile isn't telling me much about you.

Any way, sometimes it's not what you know, it's in the way you make your point.

If you are asked to go over the first aid requirements for the Tenderfoot Rank and you know before you start that the material in the Scout Handbook is out of date. You really should inform the person who asked you to make the presentation that you will be presenting the new material and where you got it from. Better still you could show him or her the new material in black and white.

This would save a lot of embarrassment all round.Also when you do present the material, it's not a good idea to say that what is in the handbook is wrong. It is far better to explain that it was right however it has been up dated and the new way is ...

You can then use this as an example of making sure that you do everything possible to keep up to date with the ever changing material.

Eamonn

[Bob White]

I have to disagree FirstAider. The handbook says to treat as a wound which would include cleaning and covering. In the case of a poisonous bite it also says to lay the victim down and keep him calm, which would slow his circulation. The handbook information is sufficient for a beginner to lend aid in a emergency situation. A person following the first aid steps in the currenet handbook will certainly do more good than harm to a victim.

 

You need to keep in mind that the requirements up to First Class are just the first step in 7 years of continual training. Each scout has the handbook to use as his reference guide when learning these basic steps. The scout is going to be tested on the contents and methods in the handbook. You need to teach the handbook for this beginning phase of advancement.

[acco40]

I am privileged to have a medical professional as an SA on our troop. When he instructs first aid, either as a MB counselor, or for rank requirements, he is very careful to teach using the BSA resources. That is, even if he has better information, he sticks to what the BSA states in their reference material. If he can add to or enhance that information with more of his own, he may do so. However, he tries hard to never add information that conflicts with the BSA.

 

Again, these Scouts will not be performing radical surgery or running a large scale triage center in the immediate future. What they may do, albeit on very rare occasions, is be put in a position to administer first aid.

 

That being said, I would be very hesitant to interrupt one of the adults while he/she was giving any type of instruction to the youth. Yes we are all amateurs with respect to Scouting (at least in the unit positions) but some professional courtesy should be shown amongst the voluteers. If I felt one of the SAs or volunteer adult instructors was giving the boys incorrect information, I would handle the situation after teh meeting with the adults in question.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Fat Old Guy]

Gee, Bob White is always holding up the First Aid section as an example of how the current handbooks is soooo much better than the older ones. Interestingly, the last edition of the handbook refers to using a constriction to slow flow of the venom. Interesting, no?

 

Perhaps, BSA decided that Boy Scouts would apply the constriction too tightly and cause greater harm.

 

In any case, if you are teaching BSA first aid, you need to cover BSA's material. If you do decide to add to the material, you need to make it clear that you, as a professional, are teaching an advanced method and that it isn't in the handbook and they aren't responsible to know it for advancement.

 

I'll go along with Stapler Guy and agree that interrupting and correcting an adult or even a youth instructor does no one any favors. The students will see the instructor in a diminished capacity which will be detrimental to his ability to teach in the future.

 

If he's really going off base, you might want to call him aside and tell him where he's going astray. Otherwise, wait until he's done and say, "Mr. Brown, I have something to add, if you don't mind . . ."

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

If I was the Scoutmaster and I asked someone to cover something that was in the Scout Handbook and the person I asked pointed out that material in the Handbook was outdated and could provide a reference I think I would have to go along with the up to date material.

I would hope that whoever was doing the presentation would clear it with me first.I would also hope that once the person started the presentation I would have enough faith in the person that I asked to let them get on with the job. If I didn't have this faith why would I have asked them in the first place.

Of course if the person took it upon himself to go ahead and do his own thing without clearing it, I would be upset.

I wonder if the person doing the presentation had been a doctor if the ASM would have corrected him ?

If the material in the Handbook is outdated, I would think that when the next edition comes out it will be updated. If that is the case what harm is there in having that information now?

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

"If the material in the Handbook is outdated, I would think that when the next edition comes out it will be updated."

 

One problem is that the information in question was in the LAST handbook but removed from the current edition.

[hops_scout]

Personally, I dont care what the BSA says about First Aid, I want to know what is going to work best.

 

Remember, a Scout is Thrifty. That includes learning and not just when you go to buy something.

[Fat Old Guy]

"I dont care what the BSA says about First Aid, I want to know what is going to work best."

 

Very commendable. However, as Bob White has said on numerous ocassions, Scouters have a responsibility to deliver the program as laid out by BSA. Other information may be presented as the need arises but when dealing with material for advancement, we should stick with the program.

 

 

[Hunt]

It seems to me that the purpose of teaching First Aid to scouts is so they can apply first aid when needed, not so they can advance. So I can't see teaching them wrong information just because that's what the (outdated) book says. I guess it depends on how wrong the information is--surely nobody would advocate teaching them something that has been shown to be harmful?

[Marty_Doyle]

"Teacher, is this going to be on the quiz?"

While we do not really want to go down that road, there is a middle gound that we need to find. The Scouts need to learn the appropriate information to advance, and yet they need to get the appropriate real world info.

Last night, I had the "privilege" of being a victim for a first aid demomnstration at my son's troop meeting. I had "a bleeding head wound, a profusely bleeding cut on my left arm and a broken right lower leg." The patrol treating me put a splint on my left leg. I told them that I had passed out from pain first when they moved the broken leg to spint the well leg and then again when they elevated the broken leg to help treat me for shock. The SPL came over to check, told them they did a good job with the splint, but had put it on the wrong leg. It would cost them points at the upcoming camporee, but in the real world, it would probably have been easier to figure out which leg to splint. (The PL then said "We put the splint on the leg that was on our left......" The SPL replied that that response would usually result in further deductions, but splinting the wrong leg was already at zero).

I felt that the SPL handled the situation pretty well - you followed BSA here, and did okay, but, in the real world, think about this...which is what we are ultimately talking about. Transmitting appropriate advancement information, plus relevant real world info,in a way that the Scouts will remember.(This message has been edited by Marty_Doyle)

[Twocubdad]

BSA policies are supposed to be minimums, right? G2SS says lifeguards must be "capable swimmers" but if our unit decides our lifeguards must be certified, that's just fine. Quality Unit standards require 50% of leaders to be trained, but if our unit requires 100%, that's fine too.

 

We all need to use our judgement to decide if a particular activity is appropriate for our unit -- both for the Scouts and leaders. If an activity is beyond the capability of our Scouts and the leaders, we would be foolish to press ahead with it just because BSA policy says it is okay. If the first aid instructor is in a position to know the latest standard of care, why in the world would you not teach it to the boys?

 

Two caveats, however: there is a difference between a profession who truely knows the latest standard of care and just some old coot who thinks he knows better. You also need to consider what BW said about the abilities of the Scouts involved. Adding a tight dressing to a snake bite to lessen blood flow doesn't sound like a big deal. On the other hand it is easy to envision treatments which would be beyond the capabilities of an 11-year-old regardless of training.

 

But that goes back to the judgement thing. If another Scout is teaching the class, or an old goat who always wants to do things his way, right or wrong, then as a unit leader you need to insist they stick to the book. On the other hand, it the guy teaching first aid is an well-trained first aid instructor who understands the limitations of what lay people can do, then why not give the Scouts the benefit of his/her knowledge?