Camping Distance for Adults

[DuctTape]

7 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

IF one can find a good site that many should have patrols spaced pretty far apart. Pretty hard at State Parks, pretty easy at state conservation primitive sites. I like the idea of separate adventures but separate paper work, reservations is more work.

Yeah the younger parents like that.

Separate paperwork and reservations provides more opportunities for scouts to plan/lead and for training adults.

[perdidochas]

21 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Separate paperwork and reservations provides more opportunities for scouts to plan/lead and for training adults.

Yes, but many places won't allow people  under 18 (or sometimes 21) to reserve campsites.  

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, perdidochas said:

Yes, but many places won't allow people  under 18 (or sometimes 21) to reserve campsites.  

Don't succumb to the "Yes, but's ..."

Tell every such service that they must find a way for your designated youth to work with them to reserve sites on certain dates, for him/her to secure confirmation from his responsible leader, and for him to get that confirmation back to the service representative. Otherwise, you'll take your camp fees elsewhere.

It's amazing what people will do for a kid once they see cold, hard cash walking out their door to a competitor.

The only "yes, but" should be the unit leader's comfort level.

True story: a few years ago the ski lodge changed it's rental to some goofy electronic system for signing off on liability. For the life of me, I couldn't figure it out. Fortunately my youth went to the representative, got help, and went around to each adult showing us which parts of the screen to tap in which order.

[DuctTape]

3 hours ago, perdidochas said:

Yes, but many places won't allow people  under 18 (or sometimes 21) to reserve campsites.  

There are many other options besides paid campsites. Also the youth planning and leading is more than just putting down a credit card. I also mentioned the training of adults. Most of the time when I hear the "yes, but", it is a way to justify the present course regardless if another may be far superior albeit imperfect. Instead of looking for obstacles which make it a challenge, find a way to do it the better way for the benefit of the boys. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[blw2]

17 hours ago, qwazse said:

Fortunately my youth went to the representative, got help, and went around to each adult showing us which parts of the screen to tap in which order.

THAT is your work around for placing needing adults to make the reservations.  That, in my view, is one of the major responsibilities of the SM and ASM's....to do the bidding on direction form the scout leaders.  You don't go telling some state park that they MUST allow a minor to reserve a spot.  that would never fly.....

instead, your scouts say, "Mr, SM, we would like to go camping 'there', are you available to drive us?  Yes? great thank you.  We have confirmed that the group site is available, we'll need the outdoor committee chair to book the site.  here's the link and instructions...."

[Tampa Turtle]

18 hours ago, qwazse said:

Don't succumb to the "Yes, but's ..."

Tell every such service that they must find a way for your designated youth to work with them to reserve sites on certain dates, for him/her to secure confirmation from his responsible leader, and for him to get that confirmation back to the service representative. Otherwise, you'll take your camp fees elsewhere.

It's amazing what people will do for a kid once they see cold, hard cash walking out their door to a competitor.

The only "yes, but" should be the unit leader's comfort level.

True story: a few years ago the ski lodge changed it's rental to some goofy electronic system for signing off on liability. For the life of me, I couldn't figure it out. Fortunately my youth went to the representative, got help, and went around to each adult showing us which parts of the screen to tap in which order.

That would not work at many sites here. Great competition for the best ones and they will just walk away. 

[qwazse]

46 minutes ago, blw2 said:

... You don't go telling some state park that they MUST allow a minor to reserve a spot.  that would never fly ....

I guess that depends on the state and the park ranger/game commissioner -- and how many times you've invited scouts to do honor guard and other service projects for state representatives, park board members, etc ... .

Life is about relationships. Build the relationships, and many rules become suggestions.

32 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

That would not work at many sites here. Great competition for the best ones and they will just walk away. 

Don't ask for "best" sites. Part of scouting is making do in the cheap seats. Get to know who is most flexible with what property, and have that list at the ready for the PLC. Most state trails around here have rules for leave-no-trace campsites that don't even require reservation. They may insist that minors be accompanied by adults, or even that registration be turned in at the trail head, but no advance paperwork is necessary. Boys can pull up all of that fine print, then consult their SM/ASM about what it all means and what they need to do secure from adults to improve their plan.

Still, not every PL (or crew president) can pull off a cold call even with a buddy beside him, and follow through getting all of the steps in line so that the adult's time approving is minimal. That's why I said

Quote

The only "yes, but" should be the unit leader's comfort level.

I respect that certain youth aren't gonna pull this off in certain locations at certain times. We need to work to make those the exceptions. I was one of those youth, at one time. But after years of my SM putting us forward, I started getting more invites directly from landowners and managers asking when me and my buddies would be back. More offers than I had time to take up on! Son #1, once an adult, totally freaked out when he realized the bit about LNT campsites on state park trails. It's like he wasn't even paying attention at how little line-up work I actually did the whole time he was VP of our crew.

My kids knew they "arrived" as scouts when they could contact the property owners on their own, get their buddies in line, be trusted with the car keys and any gear I lent them, and hit the road. Many times this was done outside of troop or crew to eliminate all of us adult middle men.

Scouts will have a pinnacle experience with or without you, BSA.

Edited March 9, 2018 by qwazse

[perdidochas]

On 3/7/2018 at 9:45 AM, blw2 said:

IMO, I think that a conscious effort MUST me made in this area of giving your son space.  My son was already very comfortable with the idea of sleeping away from us so that wasn't an issue....it was more about giving him that opportunity to grow

As committee member, I rarely went with the troop for double reasons.  I was trying to give my son space + I feel as committee member I feel that I really only belong on camps occasionally in my capacity of monitoring the troop.  We already had too many adults along if MOST of the ASM's were along on the trip...and really had too many if they all went.  Add in the odd parent visiting + a committee member or 3 we sometimes had about as many adults as we did scouts.

After son joined the troop and  I was asked to serve the troop....I think I went on one monthly camp, my son's first summer camp, and one other council camp.  The last one I camped with the troop only because I was taking IOLS at the council reservation that same weekend running concurrently with some district event.  I would have loved to go on a lot more but purposely stayed away.

Our SM had a soft rule about 1st year scouts not tenting alone.  He pushed it but I don't think it was set in stone.... I think it was mostly for the first camp or two till he could get a read on the boy.  Star scout seems extreme to me....personally I think that IF you must have such a rule I'd say 1st Class would be the highest limit....maybe even tenderfoot or 2nd class.

I can see advantages of the social thing and building friendships....but if one wanted to add requirements such as this I personally like the idea of patrol tee pees...big enough for the whole patrol....that could really help build patrol spirit!

Well, the troop was a by-law troop, so I didn't want to rock the boat too much.  I rocked the boat for things I felt were more important--like encouraging the boys to plan backpacking trips.  The troop has   three person tents, which would fit four small scouts barely, three small scouts well, and was spacious for two large scouts. The adults encouraged them to sleep in twos, unless there was an odd scout out.  Three in a tent were too noisy to the other scouts.  I can't imagine a patrol sized tent trying to sleep.  

I was initially a committee member (Advancement person), but ended up going on a lot of the campouts, as we didn't have enough active ASMs.  Often we would camp with one ASM and myself for adults for 8 scouts.  However, when I thought there were too many adults, I usually made sure I was the first to bow out. I knew I would be needed to go on plenty of campouts.  

[perdidochas]

5 hours ago, blw2 said:

THAT is your work around for placing needing adults to make the reservations.  That, in my view, is one of the major responsibilities of the SM and ASM's....to do the bidding on direction form the scout leaders.  You don't go telling some state park that they MUST allow a minor to reserve a spot.  that would never fly.....

instead, your scouts say, "Mr, SM, we would like to go camping 'there', are you available to drive us?  Yes? great thank you.  We have confirmed that the group site is available, we'll need the outdoor committee chair to book the site.  here's the link and instructions...."

Exactly.  The majority of campouts we would go to state parks.  We had some work to do on boy led. I do agree it would have been better to have the Scouts do all that legwork.  

[blw2]

On 3/9/2018 at 4:10 PM, perdidochas said:

I can't imagine a patrol sized tent trying to sleep.  

yeah, that's kinda my point.... and they don't change their socks, either....