Advancement - speed to destination or quality of journey

[Col. Flagg]

52 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Unless you're next to a screaming toddler on a Lufthansa flight. THEN it is all about the destination and not the journey! 

https://metro.co.uk/video/video-demonic-child-screams-eight-hour-flight-1628342/?ito=vjs-link

[David CO]

4 hours ago, ParkMan said:

In my mind, it's a continuum.  Just as boys go from Wolf to Bear and Bear to Webelos, so too do they take the step from AOL to Boy Scout. 

That may be the way you would wish it to be, but is that reality?  In my neck of the woods, less than half of all cub scouts go on to join boy scouts. Some cub scouts quit during their second year of webelos because they have already decided not to cross over.

Perhaps there should be a non-webelos den for cub scouts who just want to be cub scouts.

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

That may be the way you would wish it to be, but is that reality?  In my neck of the woods, less than half of all cub scouts go on to join boy scouts. Some cub scouts quit during their second year of webelos because they have already decided not to cross over.

Perhaps there should be a non-webelos den for cub scouts who just want to be cub scouts.

I agree and disagree on this. The statistic Nationally is less than 50% of “Webelos IIs” join Boy Scouts. So if we added the dropouts from all the age groups, including the Tigers, the number of cubs who don’t join Boy Scouts is substantial, maybe 75%.The main cause of cub drop outs is adult leader burnout. Burned out Leaders don’t put the effort into the program to make it interesting for the boys, so they get bored and move on. I believe the overburdened Cub program is the main cause for dropping membership the 30 years. 

Barry

[Jameson76]

18 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I believe the overburdened Cub program is the main cause for dropping membership the 30 years. 

Overburdened??    You just have to get on the membership train, more stuff is BETTER

• Used to be 3 years of Cubs then one got to Scouts (waaay back in the day)
• Let's make it School year so they all advance at the same pace
• Let's go camping
• Let's all go camping as a family
• Let's add a year of Webelos so we can lower the entrance age
• Let's add Tigers so we can lower the entrance age again
• Let's add popcorn sales
• Let's add camp card sales
• Let's add Girl Dens / Boy Dens / Coed Packs
• Let's add kindergartners so we can lower the entrance age again
• Let's do Cub Scouts for 6 FUN FILLED YEARS!!!

[Eagledad]

14 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Overburdened??    You just have to get on the membership train, more stuff is BETTER

• Used to be 3 years of Cubs then one got to Scouts (waaay back in the day)
• Let's make it School year so they all advance at the same pace
• Let's go camping
• Let's all go camping as a family
• Let's add a year of Webelos so we can lower the entrance age
• Let's add Tigers so we can lower the entrance age again
• Let's add popcorn sales
• Let's add camp card sales
• Let's add Girl Dens / Boy Dens / Coed Packs
• Let's add kindergartners so we can lower the entrance age again
• Let's do Cub Scouts for 6 FUN FILLED YEARS!!!

And one other big factor is the average Webelos leader is the burned out mom who has no outdoor camping experience. Is anybody surprised by the 49% crossover number?

Barry

[perdidochas]

On 2/14/2018 at 3:44 PM, qwazse said:

Hey guys! WM crossed over to the dark side! One FCFY down, umpteen thousand more to go!

I agree that actually achieving FCFY isn't necessarily a good thing. That said, I think that a good troop should have the conditions in place so that a scout could get FCFY, theoretically.  Besides scout inertia, a very active super Scout should be able to achieve FCFY.  

[perdidochas]

On 2/14/2018 at 11:17 PM, MattR said:

@ParkMan, did the scouts choose tenderfoot in 3 month and did they come up with a plan to get there (with dates and activities)? I certainly believe that tenderfoot in 3 mo is leisurely for an adult, but for a scout and his patrol leader, who might be more interested in sharpening sticks, making fires and cooking dutch oven brownies, I can see 3 mo being a rush. Maybe rush is the wrong word. More like the primary focus. I work with troop guides and suggest that tenderfoot by the end of summer is a good goal. Better than that is have the patrol work as a team to help each other complete it by a chosen time. Rank is just a means. The goal is developing teamwork, friendship and having them make their own decisions. Besides, there is a lot of other stuff worth learning and fun to be had. Organizing menus and activities for a campout. Learning how to cook something that's edible on a campout. Making a patrol flag. Keeping everyone busy. Learning how to have fun while washing dishes. I think it's better to have a fun game that encourages scouts to want to learn the skills then just teach them the skills. It's certainly less efficient, but it's a lot more fun. At that age having fun and making friends is more important than "ranking up." I hate that term, but that's what some of my scouts have said, the ones that are more interested in rank than anything else.

I personally think that the Scouts should be working on T-2-1 simultaneously.  Then, after a while, they should concentrate on Tenderfoot to finish, then Second Class, then First Class.  

[David CO]

49 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I agree and disagree on this. The statistic Nationally is less than 50% of “Webelos IIs” join Boy Scouts. So if we added the dropouts from all the age groups, including the Tigers, the number of cubs who don’t join Boy Scouts is substantial, maybe 75%.The main cause of cub drop outs is adult leader burnout. Burned out Leaders don’t put the effort into the program to make it interesting for the boys, so they get bored and move on. I believe the overburdened Cub program is the main cause for dropping membership the 30 years. 

Barry

Thanks for the stats. That is consistent with what I have been seeing. Yes, I think we agree on the numbers, but disagree on how to interpret them. 

[WisconsinMomma]

40 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

And one other big factor is the average Webelos leader is the burned out mom who has no outdoor camping experience. Is anybody surprised by the 49% crossover number?

Barry

Hey, way to blame moms for BSA's numbers.   100% of my scouts crossed over,  only 4 of 6 are still in scouts one year later.  One left for sports, the other for disinterest.   

In some families the crossover seems to be about the parents -- and especially -- families and boys who choose sports over Scouting, and parents who think Boy Scouting is uncool for their children's social status. 

[FireStone]

11 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

I personally think that the Scouts should be working on T-2-1 simultaneously.  Then, after a while, they should concentrate on Tenderfoot to finish, then Second Class, then First Class.  

I think a lot of scouts do. Some summer camps have a "Dan Beard Program" or some other-named first-year scout program to work on a ton of T-2-1 requirements. I did it as a kid and if memory serves, that week-long program knocked out about half of the reqs for each rank. 

Off-topic: I also remember you got a sign-off sheet with initials by each requirement, and in the handbook they just put "DB" for "Dan Beard". You had to refer to the sign-off sheet to see the actual initials. Another scout in my troop tried to add a few extra "DB"s in his book for requirements that weren't actually done in the program. He finally got caught in the Eagle paperwork, yet somehow he still got Eagle. I never figured out how he was allowed to pass. 

[FireStone]

3 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Unless you're next to a screaming toddler on a Lufthansa flight. THEN it is all about the destination and not the journey! 

https://metro.co.uk/video/video-demonic-child-screams-eight-hour-flight-1628342/?ito=vjs-link

I flew to the Dominican Republic sitting near a bathroom that was broken (and unable to contain the smell of itself as a result of whatever was broken). It was 100% about the destination then. 

[gblotter]

 

3 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

100% of my scouts crossed over,  only 4 of 6 are still in scouts one year later.  One left for sports, the other for disinterest.

One strength of LDS Scouting is that crossover is 100%, and retention in Boy Scouts up through age 14 is also near 100%. There are other obvious drawbacks in LDS Scouting - especially for boys age 14-17.

[Col. Flagg]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

And one other big factor is the average Webelos leader is the burned out mom who has no outdoor camping experience. Is anybody surprised by the 49% crossover number?

Not sure if mom or dad who doesn't have the camping experience. I have had a near equal measure of both.

As to the 49% figure, one of the things in my area that impacts this rate are "select" or competitive sports. Right at 11 (or 6th grade), soccer and baseball select sports kick in. Practices are several times a week with a game at least once a week, usually on weekends. Since every parent thinks their kid is the next Messi or A-Rod, those on the fence about Scouting tend to lean toward sports...further pushed that direction by dad or mom (dad usually). The next decision point is high school (age 14) because they want to make JV or Varsity.

The non-sporting kids -- the ones Scouting used to be able to get with little effort -- are in to choir, band or orchestra or some other school team. These groups used to have one busy season, but now it is all the time, all year. So now even the geeky kids are stepping away from Scouting.

I don't think there's an easy culprit to pin the 49% number on.

[Eagledad]

15 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Hey, way to blame moms for BSA's numbers.   100% of my scouts crossed over,  only 4 of 6 are still in scouts one year later.  One left for sports, the other for disinterest.   

In some families the crossover seems to be about the parents -- and especially -- families and boys who choose sports over Scouting, and parents who think Boy Scouting is uncool for their children's social status. 

No wonder the world is in such a mess. Folks are so focused on their own personal agendas, they are color blinded to reality. 

You always misread between the lines of my posts. The only blame is National that burdens the cub adults so much that they are burned out by third year of a five year program. I personally interviewed dozens of Webelos leaders over the years, so if you don’t agree, you are free to invest your own time to prove me wrong. Let me give you a hint, start talking to the Bear leaders.

I also interviewed many male Webelos leaders who had no desire to lead the Den, but were swayed (heels dragging) one way or another into holding Den meetings. Their Scouts couldn’t wait to jump ship. I believe it’s fair to say 40% of Webelos leaders have no enthusiasm for being a den leader and are counting days to cross over.

Its a huge problem, but as long as folks are stuck on their own personal agendas, the real problems get ignored. Shesh.

I started a program in our District to help burned out Webelos leaders, which had some success. But a few scouters who read about the program on the forum created the program in their own district with great success of about 90% crossovers. Unimaginable in my area.

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

@Eagledad ,  around here CM's and ACM's are more likely to cross-over into SM and ASM positions than Webelos DL's particularly those on their second tour or more.