Advancement - speed to destination or quality of journey

[qwazse]

5 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

When I first started, I did some reading about Boy Scout advancement, and all of the ins and outs.   This whole idea of first class in a year (and it's out there as an expectation) is generally unreasonable and a bunch of garbage.  But when I read online somewhere that Scouts should get first class in a year,  I worried.   Now I realize that that expectation is lame, and I am not as worried about my sons,  a 13 year old, second year, second class and an 11 year old tenderfoot (He's been in the troop 11 months, what's wrong with being Tenderfoot at 11 months??).  My oldest might make first class by his third year of summer camp or thereabouts.  One of our more experienced adults suggests that boys get something checked off once a week, but my boys have not kept that pace, they get maybe one or two things a month -- I'm not exactly sure how much they accomplish in a month.

Hey guys! WM crossed over to the dark side! One FCFY down, umpteen thousand more to go!

Edited February 14, 2018 by qwazse

[mashmaster]

5 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

When I first started, I did some reading about Boy Scout advancement, and all of the ins and outs.   This whole idea of first class in a year (and it's out there as an expectation) is generally unreasonable and a bunch of garbage.  But when I read online somewhere that Scouts should get first class in a year,  I worried.   Now I realize that that expectation is lame, and I am not as worried about my sons,  a 13 year old, second year, second class and an 11 year old tenderfoot (He's been in the troop 11 months, what's wrong with being Tenderfoot at 11 months??).  My oldest might make first class by his third year of summer camp or thereabouts.  One of our more experienced adults suggests that boys get something checked off once a week, but my boys have not kept that pace, they get maybe one or two things a month -- I'm not exactly sure how much they accomplish in a month.

 

 

We see scouts get first class anywhere from 1.25 years to 3 years.  Depends on the boy, some of them look at the book at are very focused on advancing, others couldn't care.  Some of the slower ones we have discussions with them to see if they understand how advancement works.

[FireStone]

I think we're way off topic at this point, but on the subject of advancement...

It kind of seems like no matter what pace a kid takes, it will bother someone. Go too fast and you're missing out on the journey. Go too slow and earn eagle in the 11th hour before turning 18 and they didn't take it seriously, didn't plan ahead, procrastinated, etc., etc., etc. 

My feeling is if this is supposed to be about the journey, let it be a journey that fits each scout. No two journeys end up being the same. The kids have their list of requirements, but even within that there is a lot of choice and different angles of approach. We want them to become leaders but we don't want then to lead on their own advancement trail? If we're going to say this is still a youth-led program, we should let up on the criticism of how they approach their own advancement. 

If the benefits of the program are so heavily dependent on time spent in the program, then we should have a requirement on the books that puts more time between ranks. Unless/until that happens, the boys should decide their own pace, whatever works for them, even if that means fast-tracking. 

[RememberSchiff]

39 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I think we're way off topic at this point, but on the subject of advancement...

Thanks for bringing to my attention. As you can see posts have been moved to this new topic.

RS

[Oldscout448]

I posted this before, but I think it's pertinent here I had two sons two years apart both joined scouting  when they turned11 and stayed till they were 18. both had in their own words a blast.  both were elected Patrol leader, senior patrol leader, to rhe OA,and both count the time they spent in scouts as some of the best times of their life.

 

One of the made eagle, the other managed to get to first class after five years.

Different people,  but both success stories.

[HelpfulTracks]

I subscription to GTAYOP principle of advancement. 

[qwazse]

I'll let someone else spin this about something like who's got any news about WSJ acceptances ...

@FireStone, don't get me wrong. I want boys to master first class skills ASAP.  Girls too ... my crew, when active, goes for wilderness, and we only go as deep as skills allow. The sooner those skills are mastered, the sooner we can make better hike plans, do better service projects, build honor guards, support civic ceremony, cook really good meals, etc ...

But, I'm in no hurry to put a patch on a scout who hasn't mastered the skills in those requirements. And for all but disabled boys that is met, not by time spent in the program, but rather time spent on the program. A boy spending 5 hours a week and an overnight a month working on advancement will rank up right quick ... an hour a week and camping once a quarter will take a good couple or five years.

[ParkMan]

After the adjustment in requirements a year or two back, I thought 18 months to First Class is the new number.  Not sure if that's national or just our take.

I really don't mind an 18 month journey to First class:
Scout - 1 month
Tenderfoot - 3 months
Second Class - 9 months
First Class - 15 months
That all seems like a pretty leisurely pace to me.

 

[Thunderbird]

The current Boy Scout Handbook says First Class within about 12-18 months.  Scouts in my son's troop are taking longer (than they were previously) to make First Class primarily because they have trouble tracking their fitness activities at home for TF/FC/SC.

[The Latin Scot]

If the Webelos leaders have been doing their job, you can cut another month off of that time frame - the requirements for the Scouting Adventure adventure are almost identical to those for Scout rank, so ideally they should be able to pass off that rank after their first meeting. That's always my goal with my Webelos Scouts; I prep them in the weeks leading up to their advancement to Boy Scouts so that they are prepared to meet with their Scoutmaster and pass things off at that first Patrol gathering. But it does take careful planning on the Webelos leaders' part, and close coordination with the Troop leadership as well. 

[MattR]

@ParkMan, did the scouts choose tenderfoot in 3 month and did they come up with a plan to get there (with dates and activities)? I certainly believe that tenderfoot in 3 mo is leisurely for an adult, but for a scout and his patrol leader, who might be more interested in sharpening sticks, making fires and cooking dutch oven brownies, I can see 3 mo being a rush. Maybe rush is the wrong word. More like the primary focus. I work with troop guides and suggest that tenderfoot by the end of summer is a good goal. Better than that is have the patrol work as a team to help each other complete it by a chosen time. Rank is just a means. The goal is developing teamwork, friendship and having them make their own decisions. Besides, there is a lot of other stuff worth learning and fun to be had. Organizing menus and activities for a campout. Learning how to cook something that's edible on a campout. Making a patrol flag. Keeping everyone busy. Learning how to have fun while washing dishes. I think it's better to have a fun game that encourages scouts to want to learn the skills then just teach them the skills. It's certainly less efficient, but it's a lot more fun. At that age having fun and making friends is more important than "ranking up." I hate that term, but that's what some of my scouts have said, the ones that are more interested in rank than anything else.

[ParkMan]

@MattR Good question.  No, they didn't set these.  I do see where you're going with it and think it's a great idea.  If I had my way, we'd operate more like you describe.  I could fill a whole thread on our woes.  In short though, our Scoutmaster corps doesn't really understand how to grow you in the way you describe.

We've got more of a Webelos 3 approach.  During the skills development portion of our meetings, the ASMs of New Scouts works with the Troop Guides to have some sort of development program.  Usually it's something rank related - but not always.  I think of our approach a little like a cruise.  The ASM is the Cruise director and has a series of fun activities each week.  While the boys are not doing those, they work as a patrol to do other things.  It's not close to perfect, but it's what we've been doing.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

6 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

If the Webelos leaders have been doing their job, you can cut another month off of that time frame - the requirements for the Scouting Adventure adventure are almost identical to those for Scout rank, so ideally they should be able to pass off that rank after their first meeting. That's always my goal with my Webelos Scouts; I prep them in the weeks leading up to their advancement to Boy Scouts so that they are prepared to meet with their Scoutmaster and pass things off at that first Patrol gathering. But it does take careful planning on the Webelos leaders' part, and close coordination with the Troop leadership as well. 

If memory serves, doesn't the Webelos have to talk to the SM for Scouting Adventure? That could be the SMC.

I remember earning the Scout badge a week after Crossing Over AND getting the time requirements between Scout and Tenderfoot waived due to AOL. My old troop would do the investiture ceremony within 3 weeks of the Webelos Crossing Over, as the troop neckers were handmade and not readily available at times.

Sadly I do not believe many WDLs are doing their job properly. They are treating Webelos as Wolves and Bears still, when it should be the transition phase. I'm seeing it with one of the packs that feeds into us; their Webelos are just are not ready for Boy Scouts when they cross over. And from posts here and elsewhere, this seems like a nationwide problem.

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If memory serves, doesn't the Webelos have to talk to the SM for Scouting Adventure? That could be the SMC.

I remember earning the Scout badge a week after Crossing Over AND getting the time requirements between Scout and Tenderfoot waived due to AOL. My old troop would do the investiture ceremony within 3 weeks of the Webelos Crossing Over, as the troop neckers were handmade and not readily available at times.

Sadly I do not believe many WDLs are doing their job properly. They are treating Webelos as Wolves and Bears still, when it should be the transition phase. I'm seeing it with one of the packs that feeds into us; their Webelos are just are not ready for Boy Scouts when they cross over. And from posts here and elsewhere, this seems like a nationwide problem.

What I've been seeing is a much bigger divide between packs & troops that there should be.  The WDL are definitely part of the pack culture and leadership group.  I think it's just hard for them to think Boy Scout because they are so surrounded by Cub Scout culture.

What I've proposed is that we have troop leaders who were once WDL teach the WDL training course in person.  Teach the material from the persepctive they now hold being an ASM.  Hasn't happened yet, but someday

[mashmaster]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If memory serves, doesn't the Webelos have to talk to the SM for Scouting Adventure? That could be the SMC.

I remember earning the Scout badge a week after Crossing Over AND getting the time requirements between Scout and Tenderfoot waived due to AOL. My old troop would do the investiture ceremony within 3 weeks of the Webelos Crossing Over, as the troop neckers were handmade and not readily available at times.

Sadly I do not believe many WDLs are doing their job properly. They are treating Webelos as Wolves and Bears still, when it should be the transition phase. I'm seeing it with one of the packs that feeds into us; their Webelos are just are not ready for Boy Scouts when they cross over. And from posts here and elsewhere, this seems like a nationwide problem.

That is now longer a requirement in the new Arrow of Light program.   I am assuming they pulled it because people complained it was hard to accomplish last minute before crossover ceremonies.....  just a total guess.   I think it was a great requirement to have.