Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[Eagle1993]

@qwazse

What will really happen if BSA waits until January is that existing Troops will have their existing trained SM/ASM/CC/etc. create a paper “girl” Troop and simply combine forces with their existing Boy Scout Troop.  I’m not saying this is a bad thing, but I don’t believe there are a lot of people waiting and ready to quickly create truly independent new Troops in the matter of weeks.

As a CC of an existing Pack it was a lot of extra work to add girls mid stream.  Simply dealing with the crappy BSA IT system, tracking down dues, finding and training new den leaders, reserving meeting locations, etc. while maintaining my existing Pack obligations wasn’t easy.  Many BSA volunteers are already heavily loaded and creating a new Troop is a lot more work than simply adding a den.  

If BSA really wants hundreds of new Troops created in time for spring crossover then I do think it makes sense that they announce and allow Troops to start forming this fall (even if they don’t allow scouts to join immediately).  This will allow the IT glitches, recruiting and training of volunteers, going to your local banks to setup new accounts, setting up meeting locations to occur in time for crossover.

If they go down the path @Eagle94-A1 mentioned then it is similar to adding a den (probably even easier) and they could get that up and running quickly in January.

[qwazse]

@Eagle1993, fall roundup always sounded like the usual rhythm for boys and cubs.

They could say, "We'll accept girls' applications if and when your troop decides to accept them. Follow the G2SS. Peace out."

That could start tomorrow. No muss no fuss. Don't anyone ask for rules they don't need.

The downside ... all of those specialists and program planners would be out of a job. And BSA can't rake in those $40 chartering fees.

[Chisos]

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

From a high level national volunteer on facebook, BSA is now reconsidering a separate all girls program, and is now looking at separate girls patrols in existing troops.

 

Ever since this all came out I've always felt this was the only possible solution...the only way to reconcile "girls are in" with "same opportunities and equal program."

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Chisos said:

Ever since this all came out I've always felt this was the only possible solution...the only way to reconcile "girls are in" with "same opportunities and equal program."

Agreed. As much as I personally believe that accepting girls in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts is the worst mistake BSA ever made,  their roll out and implementation of this decision is BSA's #3 mistake of all time, right behind #2's Improve Scouting Program fiasco of the 1970s.  

Don't know about other areas, but in my district, only 1 CO is looking to go coed. Two packs and troops will be approaching their COs about the topic. All the rest of the units and/or COs are against this membership change. One troop told me that if they are forced to accept girls, the CO will drop Scouting as an outreach ministry in a heartbeat. I mention this because I do not believe BSA actually listened to folk in the field before making this decision.  Otherwise they would not be doing it.

But since they are doing it, they need to do it right.And their separate but equal program will not work. They need full integration to do it right.

[Pselb]

Segregation went out the window 50 years ago.  Either it's an all-boys program or it's co-ed.  There's no middle ground available and until people realize that, lawyers will continue to rake in the money faster than BSA can come up with it.

 

[qwazse]

8 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

...

But since they are doing it, they need to do it right.And their separate but equal program will not work. They need full integration to do it right.

Define "work".

Separate charters for girls "works" for DEs who need to bump their unit counts. I think it could "work" to force GS/USA to up its game by freeing enrollment caps in its  best troops to compete with BSA4G's inevitable "there's always room for one more" attitude. It helps pro-unisex SMs feel a little sheltered by allowing them to pass the buck to national when some girl asks why she can't join the troop. It works for those who want to control patrol assignments.

Allowing girls to sign on to existing charters "works" for paperwork-weary CCs -- especially those of rogue troops. They don't have to change their routine. They probably have coed leadership in place. It works for "the buck stops here" SMs and CORs who can say they are fielding a male only program. It removes a barrier to post-modern nomads who are looking for a one-stop-shop for children of opposite sex. And it works in terms of being able to count how many new units start exclusively for girls vs. units who prefer to be mixed.

I'm ambivalent about either. I haven't had girls knocking at my door (even for venturing, let alone any imminent BSA4G program) for two years. The potential beneficiaries of a BSA4G who I've talked to are generally content with their GS/USA troop, or they find their brothers to be a little too dorky to imitate, or some combination of both. So all this is hypothetical. But, I have talked with potential adult leaders (COR, the troop committee, the SMs) by way of keeping them informed. That way, if there's demand, we can meet it.

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, Pselb said:

Segregation went out the window 50 years ago.  Either it's an all-boys program or it's co-ed.  There's no middle ground available and until people realize that, lawyers will continue to rake in the money faster than BSA can come up with it.

Actually, Title IX says different. Thus collegiate sports programs continue being segregated.

Also, middle ground is the Czech model where districts may have all-boy troops, all girl troops, and mixed troops in any combination. The natural tendency there is to have at least one of each in a district.

In scouts UK, the scales tipped toward all co-Ed within a decade. I'm not sure how much of that was unit driven vs. a push from the national association in light of the demand.

Regardless, lawyers gonna litigate.

[Pselb]

How many transgenders are now infiltrating the collegiate level sports.    NCAA is reviewing it's stand as we speak.

 

[cocomax]

I have read stories from co-ed troops in Canada and Venturing Crews in the USA that being an adult leader to a Co-Ed group on over nights is very stressful and can sometimes lead to rapid burn out and scouters quitting.

Trips have much less of a scouting feel and seem more like you have become a chaperone to a high school dance.

Many troops in Canada have a "tent watch"  rule. The adults are required to take 2 hour night watch shifts to make sure there are not any scouts switching tents in the middle of the night. 

Scouting groups like to hide the numbers, but I found a number from a few years back that said the number of  "Scouts" (ages 11 to 14) in Canada was down to under 14,000 children with 20% of them being female.

It amazes me that Canada Scouts is still a thing with such low membership.

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by cocomax

[Cambridgeskip]

32 minutes ago, cocomax said:

I have read stories from co-ed troops in Canada and Venturing Crews in the USA that being an adult leader to a Co-Ed group on over nights is very stressful and can sometimes lead to rapid burn out and scouters quitting.

Trips have much less of a scouting feel and seem more like you have become a chaperone to a high school dance.

Many troops in Canada have a "tent watch"  rule. The adults are required to take 2 hour night watch shifts to make sure there are not any scouts switching tents in the middle of the night. 

Scouting groups like to hide the numbers, but I found a number from a few years back that said the number of  "Scouts" (ages 11 to 14) in Canada was down to under 14,000 children with 20% of them being female.

It amazes me that Canada Scouts is still a thing with such low membership.

 

 

 

My troop (coed) is lucky enough to have a twin troop in Canada, also coed that we have done a series of exchanges with.. Obviously I can't speak for any other Canadian troops but they do no such thing. At night adults go to bed, simple as that. Same this side of the pond as well.

Absolutely no need for there to be any extra stress.

Young love occassionally blooms but it's never caused a problem. The boys and the girls are there to do what scouts do and it's never caused us disruption.

[qwazse]

@cocomax, I've been at some camporees where some SMs should have run tent-watch on their unisex units.

My crew worked hard, played hard, and slept well. That said, with older scouts, I'm they guy who takes the afternoon naps so that I can walk the grounds an hour before midnight. However, dalliances between venturers were the least of my worries. At that age, the relationships outside of crew life seem to be the most destructive.

Scouts Canada is at 63k total 15k in the scout program (age 11-14) http://www.scouts.ca/wp-content/uploads/about/2016-17-SC-AR-en.pdfMore stats covering multiple years here http://yates.ca/sc/history/membership_national.htm

[RememberSchiff]

Back in the day (here he goes), adults would keep watch on tents, as older scouts were known for raiding rival troop camps, leaving camp for the nearest town/ice cream stand, Girl Scout camp,... the usual young masculine pranks of that day.

[qwazse]

4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Back in the day (here he goes), adults would keep watch on tents, as older scouts were known for raiding rival troop camps, leaving camp for the nearest town/ice cream stand, Girl Scout camp,... the usual young masculine pranks of that day.

Now that I think of it, I might have been among those scouts ... if not on a troop overnight, certainly on church camps. 

I remember that chapter coming to a close after I camped on a farm with a mixed youth group (effectively a co-Ed patrol). I remember it vividly because I had procured tents from my QM, but a female leader passed. She was the first person I met who gladly slept out under the stars. It took me until I was twice as old as she was at the time to adopt the same routine. Anyway, that event blunted the effect of a culture that taught that a girls were a population to be "raided."

Your mileage may vary.

[Back Pack]

As a venturer I can tell you that tent visits do happen but not nearly as much as you think. Also not for the reasons you think either. I have known a few who hooked up but out of all the guys and girls I know in Venturing it is very few. 

[Eagle1993]

“What happens when the girls transition to Boy Scout Troops when they get to be about 11 years old is still being worked out”, Clark said. “The options appear to be all-girl Scout Troops or all-girl patrols within a Boy Scout Troop”, she said.

This quote came from a spokeswoman from my council during a newspaper interview.  It seems like that all Girl patrol in an existing Troop is definitely being considered.