Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[NJCubScouter]

12 minutes ago, AVTech said:

The other thing that no one seems to be able to answer is when they plan to roll this all out. The issue with no clear dates as of yet is this: Let's say, a 10 year old girl joins a Cub Scout Pack on January 15th as part of the early adopter push. She earns her Bobcat in the first week, and starts working on the requirements for Arrow of Light. Without pushing her hard, she is eligible to earn her AoL on July 15th- 6 months later, as per the Cub Requirements. What does she do after that? If the current timeline is gospel, she has to wait until sometime in 2019 to join a Troop. I see another early adopter program for Troops available over the summer.

If that 10 year old girl is in the fifth grade, she did not join on Jan. 15, 2018.  (Assuming that the rules spelled out by National are being followed.) Only girls up through grade 4 were permitted to join under the early adopter program, and that was presumably done for the exact reason you mention.  A fourth grade girl who just joined can go for their Webelos and Arrow of Light badges, and then cross over in about a year, and National has said that by then, there will be a program for Boy-Scout-age girls to join.

[Eagle94-A1]

20 minutes ago, AVTech said:

The other thing that no one seems to be able to answer is when they plan to roll this all out. The issue with no clear dates as of yet is this: Let's say, a 10 year old girl joins a Cub Scout Pack on January 15th as part of the early adopter push. She earns her Bobcat in the first week, and starts working on the requirements for Arrow of Light. Without pushing her hard, she is eligible to earn her AoL on July 15th- 6 months later, as per the Cub Requirements. What does she do after that? If the current timeline is gospel, she has to wait until sometime in 2019 to join a Troop. I see another early adopter program for Troops available over the summer.

@NJCubScouter beat me to it.

BUT as someone from national told me in a PM on facebook when I kept stating a program needs to be up and running no later than January 1 2019, the girls, and boys for that matter, can stay in Cub Scouts and continue working on Adventure Badges until the girls program is created.

Can you hear the negative PR when boys start crossing over in the December 2018 to March 2019 time frame, and the girls cannot because a program has not been implemented yet?

[Eagle1993]

Not only that but it takes time to generate a new unit.  It took me 2-3 weeks of IT hoops and leader training just to add a den in an existing pack.  If they want new Troops for girls ready by April 2019 they need to start soft launching this year. That will allow COs to generate the new Troops.  Leaders for these troops to be put in place. Bank accounts created.  Treasures, CC, SM, ASM all trained.  Then what about new equipment?  Reservations for meeting locations.  There are a ton of activities for a new Troop and I’d expect they’ll need 3-6 months lead time so when the girls join the logistical items are complete.  Given that, they should start this effort this fall.

[Jameson76]

2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Not only that but it takes time to generate a new unit.  It took me 2-3 weeks of IT hoops and leader training just to add a den in an existing pack.  If they want new Troops for girls ready by April 2019 they need to start soft launching this year. That will allow COs to generate the new Troops.  Leaders for these troops to be put in place. Bank accounts created.  Treasures, CC, SM, ASM all trained.  Then what about new equipment?  Reservations for meeting locations.  There are a ton of activities for a new Troop and I’d expect they’ll need 3-6 months lead time so when the girls join the logistical items are complete.  Given that, they should start this effort this fall.

[Tampa Turtle]

15 minutes ago, Pselb said:

Just a couple of ideas to float by you.  Take these Merit Badge counselors I have been reading about.  It would seem that I'm right back to just working with kids like I do every day of the week.  Not a strong point to be considering.

Also if I were to promote the already existing courses the Conservancy, state park, library, etc. offers would it not appear I'm promoting those programs rather than scouting?  If I give promotional materials to my son,  isn't that a bit much to use him as the conduit?  Just a lot of things to think about on my part.  I get enough politics at school (professional) and church (volunteer), and one of the nice things about the other areas is someone else sets them up and all I do is teach and someone else can deal with the hassles.  It's not that I can't handle it, the question is whether or not I want to.

I use to teach but stopped when it became too much of a drag. What I like about Scouts is, if you do it right, you can do most of the fun part of teaching. Merit Badges can be a hassle but teaching one part of one with somebody or just bringing a speaker is a big help. I'd say just giving promotional materials via your son is not likely to be successful and I have seen hundreds of boys.

Nothing wrong with promoting local programs. Our Troop has recurring relationships on education and service projects with the local Keep Tampa Bay Beautiful and the local Estuary program. Those folks work with Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts all the time. 

It's just that the adult leaders working with the kids are so swamped with the meeting preparation and working with individual personalities that it is hard to get there heads above water to do the simple work to make those connections. So that kind of thing is appreciated. And you kinda kill too birds with one stone.

[NJCubScouter]

8 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

BUT as someone from national told me in a PM on facebook when I kept stating a program needs to be up and running no later than January 1 2019, the girls, and boys for that matter, can stay in Cub Scouts and continue working on Adventure Badges until the girls program is created.

Can you hear the negative PR when boys start crossing over in the December 2018 to March 2019 time frame, and the girls cannot because a program has not been implemented yet?

When, when IS National planning to have the new program in place?  They originally said "sometime in 2019" but I thought that had been moved up for the purpose of the new units accepting female crossovers.  Has an actual date been announced?  And, they have not actually "announced" this new program yet at all.  It has to have a name, they need to start lining up CO's, they have to manufacture the green skorts, etc. etc.  (Ha ha on that last one.)  Has anyone heard when that announcement is planned?  (It's sort of like a presidential candidate, announcing when they are going to announce.)

[Eagle1993]

1 minute ago, Jameson76 said:

Let me make it simple for you...

The new program being proposed for girls is not additional Patrols in an existing Troop, but new Girls only Troops.  If nationals really wants that to roll out correctly (and not be paper Troops) they will need to allow plenty of time for the the organizational structure to get in place.  Adding a den is fairly easy in an existing Pack.  Having volunteers generate brand new Troops will take a lot more work and time.  If they don’t want girls waiting around until mid 2019 for crossover then nationals will have to launch the program this fall.  If nationals is claiming they can launch the program in January next year I expect many girls will be waiting a long time for Troops to form.  On the other hand, if they don’t care about paper Troops forming then Jan would probably work.

[walk in the woods]

54 minutes ago, AVTech said:

The other thing that no one seems to be able to answer is when they plan to roll this all out. The issue with no clear dates as of yet is this: Let's say, a 10 year old girl joins a Cub Scout Pack on January 15th as part of the early adopter push. She earns her Bobcat in the first week, and starts working on the requirements for Arrow of Light. Without pushing her hard, she is eligible to earn her AoL on July 15th- 6 months later, as per the Cub Requirements. What does she do after that? If the current timeline is gospel, she has to wait until sometime in 2019 to join a Troop. I see another early adopter program for Troops available over the summer.

The early adopter program was only k-4 grade girls.  Not that there couldn't be a 10-year old 4th grader but I think the BSAs intent was to exclude the issue you raise.

[walk in the woods]

@Pselb, Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the volunteer/parent issue.  It's refreshing to hear honest feedback rather than the normal excuses I think many scouters are used to hearing.  It should cause us to reflect a bit that maybe the problem BSA units face isn't a lack of volunteers so much as an overwhelming bureaucracy that requires 20 registered leaders, three lawyers, and an accountant, to run a pack of 30 boys (or youth).  

[Tampa Turtle]

18 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

When, when IS National planning to have the new program in place?  They originally said "sometime in 2019" but I thought that had been moved up for the purpose of the new units accepting female crossovers.  Has an actual date been announced?  And, they have not actually "announced" this new program yet at all.  It has to have a name, they need to start lining up CO's, they have to manufacture the green skorts, etc. etc.  (Ha ha on that last one.)  Has anyone heard when that announcement is planned?  (It's sort of like a presidential candidate, announcing when they are going to announce.)

I heard President Trump is going to tweet monday that the new BSA Skort factory will be based in a brand new factory in Mt. Hope, West Virginia employing over 500 former coal miners. BSA Chief Scout Executive Michael B. Surbaugh is expected to announce that the new 100% american made Skorts will be available first in the $100 million Scout Store USA following the consolidating of all other council scout stores to a location somewhere in Wright County, Missouri the approximate center of the U.S. population.  The new skorts will retail for $159 a pair and offer a lifetime guarantee making them an exceptional value.

[Eagle94-A1]

From a high level national volunteer on facebook, BSA is now reconsidering a separate all girls program, and is now looking at separate girls patrols in existing troops.

To quote Yoda, "Always in motion, the future is."

IMHO, National had clue what they were doing. They probably discussed this with academics, and a few affluent volunteers who have been away from the field so long, that they are clueless as to the realities of the program. They do not know the challenges that some of us face. And since they are not releasing data from the surveys, I bet that they didn't even listen to the the surveys. Heck they way they did them, i.e. out of the blue with a 15-20 day window to do them, AS WELL AS the fact that the current applications, with a print code of July 2017 are gender neutral, this decision has been made for some time.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

  The new skorts will retail for $159 a pair and offer a lifetime guarantee making them an exceptional value.

Don't go there. I already had one supply employee tell me that the cheap pants that are current issue do not have a lifetime guarantee anymore. Had to get a manager involved in that. And the second pair was just as bad.  had to use ebay and get some "expereinced" shorts from the 1990s.

[gblotter]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

From a high level national volunteer on facebook, BSA is now reconsidering a separate all girls program, and is now looking at separate girls patrols in existing troops.

BSA National Leadership = Bumbling, clueless, deceitful liars. What an embarrassment.

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Let me make it simple for you...

The new program being proposed for girls is not additional Patrols in an existing Troop, but new Girls only Troops.  If nationals really wants that to roll out correctly (and not be paper Troops) they will need to allow plenty of time for the the organizational structure to get in place.  Adding a den is fairly easy in an existing Pack.  Having volunteers generate brand new Troops will take a lot more work and time.  If they don’t want girls waiting around until mid 2019 for crossover then nationals will have to launch the program this fall.  If nationals is claiming they can launch the program in January next year I expect many girls will be waiting a long time for Troops to form.  On the other hand, if they don’t care about paper Troops forming then Jan would probably work.

What time? If 5 jr. high ladies walk up to my door in 10 months wanting to learn how to hike and camp independently with their mates:

• I have a COR and IH who told us they will support them.
• I know adults the adults who I trust to manage a committee. Others who I trust to train new committee.
• I can train the remaining ASM's. I know the IOLS schedule. Who gets to be SM is a simple game of rock, paper, scissors.
• I have a new-unit application.
  • I check the box that says Troop.
  • To be above board, I write "For Girls" in the bottom margin.
  • COR signs it.
• I call my DE and say, "Want a new unit under your belt?"

Regarding the girls. Same handbook, same YP, same patches, same uniform, pick a necker or tie dye a new one.

We meet, I roll out a map and say "Make a plan." I guide. They go.

Five youth who really care + five adults with integrity = the troop is on.

Done.

Edited February 9, 2018 by qwazse

[qwazse]

59 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

From a high level national volunteer on facebook, BSA is now reconsidering a separate all girls program, and is now looking at separate girls patrols in existing troops. ...

How does national know who is in what patrol? Hint: they don't. The best they could do with girls joining an existing troop is strongly recommend that we segregate patrols by sex.

I don't like the extra paperwork. But if it helps ease some people's paranoia, I can explain to girls that this is how BSA4G is. If they don't like it, they can immigrate to any WOSM country where families are less bent out of shape over who is in a campsite with who.