Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[cyphertext]

6 minutes ago, Pselb said:

  My son IS someone else.  It's his program, not mine.  I support his interest in the program, not the program itself.  He doesn't seem to be having any issues and is excited to go back each time without a hassle.  Life is good.  If asked for my expertise and I am available, I will offer what I have.  So far those kinds of requests have not been forthcoming from the den leaders.  Instead they want me to BE a leader.  I haven't got the time to make that kind of commitment.  I'm from the old philosophy of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  My son is happy which means to him and HIS program, it ain't broken, and my meddling is not warranted.  You need to couple this with the discussion you have been having concerning helicopter parents.  Is this "involvement" the training ground for future helicopter parents when the boy goes on to Boy Scouts.  Next year my son will be in Webelos.  I have no idea whether or not there will be an increase or decrease expectation coming my way at that point.  I would think it would be ideally a decrease in expectations in light of what others on this thread are calling "boy led" down the road in Boy Scouts.

No, the request for your involvement does not diminish in Webelos, or when he transfers to Boy Scouts.  Even with being boy led, adults are still needed with Boy Scouts.  You need a Scout Master, Assistant Scout Master, Merit Badge Counselors, Committee Chair, Treasurer, Committee members, additional drivers to get boys to camp...  lots of adult roles, many more than in Cub Scouts.

Helicopter parenting and volunteering are two different things.  A volunteer fills his role as described.  He lets the boys plan, lead, and even fail.  For example, for a Cub Scout campout, it is perfectly acceptable and expected that a parent would do the meal planning.  The cub may help, but the parent has the final say and ensures that there is enough food for everyone.  In Boy Scouts, the patrol plans the meal and has one boy, the grubmaster, responsible for getting the food.  If the patrol plans hamburgers for dinner, and the grubmaster buys 1/2 pound of meat for 8 boys, well those boys may be hungry.  As a parent, I may see this...  a helicopter parent would correct it, a Scouter will let it go and let the boys learn from it.

 

[Pselb]

The logic doesn't seem to follow through.  If I my son wanted to play summer baseball, there would be the coach and maybe an assistant coach.  I'm only guessing in that my son is not in the program.  There's 9 on the team plus a few substitutes.  That makes the majority of parents irrelevant.  And me in particular in that I'm a history teacher, not a Phy Ed teacher.   Even if I were to "get involved", I wouldn't know the first thing about baseball, I played it as a kid, but that's about it.  What training would I get?  None.  So where's my carrot-on-a-stick?  My boy wants to play baseball, I drop him off for practice and watch his games.  That's what parents do.  

On the other hand my church approaches me and says they would like someone to work with the youth, maybe teaching Sunday School.  Okay, I have the skills, I have the training, I can be effective.  As long as all my children are involved in the program, not a problem.  If one daughter wants to do soccer, the son does baseball and the other daughter wants dance lessons.  Fine, I can drop them off at the appropriate times, BUT if one or all of these programs want "parental volunteers" to help, then how do I tell my kids that their activity gets my attention and the others don't?  Or I can do all three and burn myself out and find no time to volunteer for things that interest me as an individual.  

Now, I may be an "outsider" to scouting, but the vast majority of parents who have kids in the program fit into my situation.  Those that are volunteering may not be able to recognize this factor.  Their world is scouting, ours is not.  The only connection is we have boys (and girls) in the program.

Yes, my situation is unique to me and my family, but I'm thinking there are many more just like me for other reasons who would find my shoes a comfortable fit.

[Tampa Turtle]

18 minutes ago, Pselb said:

The logic doesn't seem to follow through.  If I my son wanted to play summer baseball, there would be the coach and maybe an assistant coach.  I'm only guessing in that my son is not in the program.  There's 9 on the team plus a few substitutes.  That makes the majority of parents irrelevant.  And me in particular in that I'm a history teacher, not a Phy Ed teacher.   Even if I were to "get involved", I wouldn't know the first thing about baseball, I played it as a kid, but that's about it.  What training would I get?  None.  So where's my carrot-on-a-stick?  My boy wants to play baseball, I drop him off for practice and watch his games.  That's what parents do.  

On the other hand my church approaches me and says they would like someone to work with the youth, maybe teaching Sunday School.  Okay, I have the skills, I have the training, I can be effective.  As long as all my children are involved in the program, not a problem.  If one daughter wants to do soccer, the son does baseball and the other daughter wants dance lessons.  Fine, I can drop them off at the appropriate times, BUT if one or all of these programs want "parental volunteers" to help, then how do I tell my kids that their activity gets my attention and the others don't?  Or I can do all three and burn myself out and find no time to volunteer for things that interest me as an individual.  

Now, I may be an "outsider" to scouting, but the vast majority of parents who have kids in the program fit into my situation.  Those that are volunteering may not be able to recognize this factor.  Their world is scouting, ours is not.  The only connection is we have boys (and girls) in the program.

Yes, my situation is unique to me and my family, but I'm thinking there are many more just like me for other reasons who would find my shoes a comfortable fit.

I am starting to suspect you are Trolling and do not have a boy in the program. The way you phrase things is not how a parent of a child says things. If I am wrong I apologize. So WHAT program outside of scouting that is not work related are you involved in? I get it, I have a job and multiple kids...you pick your battles. But maybe I missed it what is yours?

I volunteer in Scouts and Band and occasionally church. Most people on this board have similar resumes. I can say the "no" because I have a bigger burning "yes". What is yours?

[Pselb]

LOL!  You want a kid?  I'll send you one!  Catch me on a good day and I'll even cover the cost of shipping.   Yes, I have a son in the program.  Apology accepted.

As I mentioned:

My church takes a lot of my "free" time, but the wife and kids are also involved as a family.  The wife teaches at the grade school level and I teach at the high school/adult level Sunday School.  All our kids are old enough to be enrolled at that time.

I volunteer for the local historical society and genealogy club because of my interest in history.  One of my daughters volunteers at the historical society along with me, a chip off the old block, I guess.  I also do a tad bit of volunteering at the local library archives section.

Occasionally one of the school clubs asks me to do some presentations, so that counts I assume.

My wife and I (and sometimes the kids) are involved with volunteering at the area Nature Conservancy with their special programming for school, church and community groups of all ages.

The same for the local state park that does special nature programming on topics that interest us.

I am considering doing a bit of volunteering for the local archaeology society, get my hands dirty for a change.  There's not much recently that calls for their expertise.

I am a member (not a volunteer) at the local Conservation Club just to get out of the house at least once a month just for myself. 

The summers are limited for us in that it is the time we focus on home-schooling field trips for our kids on outings that take us out of the area more than an hours drive or so.

A lot of my volunteering is on the instructional adult level in that it gives me an opportunity to interact with adults outside of school and church.  It's a lot more fun teaching people who want to learn and I don't have to grade their efforts.  A lot more relaxed and fun.

The fanfare in the national news about all the changes in the BSA has peaked my "interest" so as to look into it a bit.  It hasn't affected my son in any way, or at least he hasn't mentioned anything, but if I were to get involved, it would probably be in a position that wouldn't affect my son directly.  I don't want him thinking I'm only in it because he is.  That way it doesn't show partisanship against the daughters.  It would be me volunteering because I have a separate personal interest in it.

I thought as a start, and as I learn more about the scouts, I would try the forum.  If there were other nature programs out there with similar forums, I'd be on them too as I explore my options. 

 

[DuctTape]

as far as parent roles in youth baseball, just as in scouts there are a ton of other roles besides coach (SM), asst coaches (ASMs). In baseball,  parents help by planning and organizing the opening day parade, post-game treats, end-of-season banquets, etc... Besides the named roles in any youth activity, there are many other un-named roles which enhance the program for the youth and/or provide the ligistical support for the named roles.

[Pselb]

Good thing my boy isn't interested in baseball.  A lot of that "work" doesn't really apply to playing baseball, the reason a boy would want to be in the program.  I can see him getting more excited about playing first base than being part of an opening day parade.  Not really a strong incentive to getting me on-board.  It makes one wonder for whom is the program focused.

[Tampa Turtle]

1 minute ago, Pselb said:

LOL!  You want a kid?  I'll send you one!  Catch me on a good day and I'll even cover the cost of shipping.   Yes, I have a son in the program.  Apology accepted.

As I mentioned:

My church takes a lot of my "free" time, but the wife and kids are also involved as a family.  The wife teaches at the grade school level and I teach at the high school/adult level Sunday School.  All our kids are old enough to be enrolled at that time.

I volunteer for the local historical society and genealogy club because of my interest in history.  One of my daughters volunteers at the historical society along with me, a chip off the old block, I guess.  I also do a tad bit of volunteering at the local library archives section.

Occasionally one of the school clubs asks me to do some presentations, so that counts I assume.

My wife and I (and sometimes the kids) are involved with volunteering at the area Nature Conservancy with their special programming for school, church and community groups of all ages.

The same for the local state park that does special nature programming on topics that interest us.

I am considering doing a bit of volunteering for the local archaeology society, get my hands dirty for a change.  There's not much recently that calls for their expertise.

I am a member (not a volunteer) at the local Conservation Club just to get out of the house at least once a month just for myself. 

The summers are limited for us in that it is the time we focus on home-schooling field trips for our kids on outings that take us out of the area more than an hours drive or so.

A lot of my volunteering is on the instructional adult level in that it gives me an opportunity to interact with adults outside of school and church.  It's a lot more fun teaching people who want to learn and I don't have to grade their efforts.  A lot more relaxed and fun.

The fanfare in the national news about all the changes in the BSA has peaked my "interest" so as to look into it a bit.  It hasn't affected my son in any way, or at least he hasn't mentioned anything, but if I were to get involved, it would probably be in a position that wouldn't affect my son directly.  I don't want him thinking I'm only in it because he is.  That way it doesn't show partisanship against the daughters.  It would be me volunteering because I have a separate personal interest in it.

I thought as a start, and as I learn more about the scouts, I would try the forum.  If there were other nature programs out there with similar forums, I'd be on them too as I explore my options. 

 

OK K I'll buy that. If I was offensive I apologize.

No more kids. I got one ready to launch and another one moving into position once the deck clears.

I think you'd learn more by visiting actual units...and I mean the plural. They are so different. Or read the manual.

Some groups like church or scouts will make an unlimited demand on your time if you let them. So I get that.

[Pselb]

No offense taken, you need to be at a parent/teacher conference.  Your comments weren't even on the chart when you compare them to what parents say when you're flunking their child.   I've learned to be quite bullet-proof when it comes to people's comments.  

From what I'm gleaning from the forum, it would seem that no two units are alike in operation.  I get enough of kids during my everyday job, so I'm thinking more of a upper level position, but without any experience it would be difficult to position in.  I have no background in scouting as a youth so I'm coming in as a true green-horn.  I'm curious just because my son seems to be quite pleased with his involvement.  

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Pselb said:

Now, I may be an "outsider" to scouting, but the vast majority of parents who have kids in the program fit into my situation.  Those that are volunteering may not be able to recognize this factor.  Their world is scouting, ours is not.  The only connection is we have boys (and girls) in the program.

My world isn't scouting either.

I don't blame you, or any parent who is lukewarm on scouting, for not volunteering. The more gung-ho volunteers in scouting are often less than kind to those who show less support,  enthusiasm, and loyalty to BSA. If you were to volunteer, you would encounter many die-hard scouters who will tell you that you should get out because you aren't dedicated enough to scouting.

You don't need that. More importantly, your son doesn't need that. 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

12 minutes ago, Pselb said:

No offense taken, you need to be at a parent/teacher conference.  Your comments weren't even on the chart when you compare them to what parents say when you're flunking their child.   I've learned to be quite bullet-proof when it comes to people's comments.  

From what I'm gleaning from the forum, it would seem that no two units are alike in operation.  I get enough of kids during my everyday job, so I'm thinking more of a upper level position, but without any experience it would be difficult to position in.  I have no background in scouting as a youth so I'm coming in as a true green-horn.  I'm curious just because my son seems to be quite pleased with his involvement.  

Oh I have been on the other side of that conference! I've had some pretty mad Scout parents too.

One of my hats as a government person is permit review. No one likes to be regulated. I have to sometimes disapprove permits, I've had personal threats, calls from lawyers, etc. While I try hard to be a helpful public servant I have a thicker skin now too. 

[AVTech]

On 2/7/2018 at 11:47 AM, Hawkwin said:

Let's not jump to conclusions by calling people liars.

Their intent may indeed be and have been to keep them completely separate but upon further examination of the plans for implementation, they may end up determining that the final result has to be different. That doesn't make them liars. I often tell my kids we are going to do this or the other but sometimes life happens and we have to change our plans.

My take on this has always been that no matter what the intent of the folks in Irving might have been, they will not get the volunteer base that would be required to run separate Troops in most communities. The more opinions I see, and the more I think about how the heck they plan to roll this out, the more I am convinced that we will see separate Patrols in mixed Troops. 

The other thing that no one seems to be able to answer is when they plan to roll this all out. The issue with no clear dates as of yet is this: Let's say, a 10 year old girl joins a Cub Scout Pack on January 15th as part of the early adopter push. She earns her Bobcat in the first week, and starts working on the requirements for Arrow of Light. Without pushing her hard, she is eligible to earn her AoL on July 15th- 6 months later, as per the Cub Requirements. What does she do after that? If the current timeline is gospel, she has to wait until sometime in 2019 to join a Troop. I see another early adopter program for Troops available over the summer.

As the father of a really bored 13 year old Girl Scout, I am actually okay with having a coed Troop, and with starting the coed program for the 2018-2019 school year. I have the backing of my CO to run whatever program I think will best serve the local community. I have the support of most of our Troop Committee. I also have a wife who has already taken the online SM training and is scheduled to take IOLS this spring so that we have one trained female direct contact leader before we even start.

[Tampa Turtle]

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

My world isn't scouting either.

I don't blame you, or any parent who is lukewarm on scouting, for not volunteering. The more gung-ho volunteers in scouting are often less than kind to those who show less support,  enthusiasm, and loyalty to BSA. If you were to volunteer, you would encounter many die-hard scouters who will tell you that you should get out because you aren't dedicated enough to scouting.

You don't need that. More importantly, your son doesn't need that. 

 

I'd just pick out an easy area that overlaps with something you are doing anyway and offer that once in a while. Gives you some cover and isn't much of a commitment. I know a few parents whose main contribution was wheeling and dealing to hook us up for field trips; they didn't actually ever go camping or meetings much.

[Sentinel947]

Just now, David CO said:

My world isn't scouting either.

I don't blame you, or any parent who is lukewarm on scouting, for not volunteering. The more gung-ho volunteers in scouting are often less than kind to those who show less support,  enthusiasm, and loyalty to BSA. If you were to volunteer, you would encounter many die-hard scouters who will tell you that you should get out because you aren't dedicated enough to scouting.

You don't need that. More importantly, your son doesn't need that. 

 

That's really unfortunate if that's how things are in your area. 

I know at least in my Troop, we encourage every parent to volunteer just a little bit. That might be driving scouts to a campout or summer camp. Maybe it means helping man a Popcorn show and sell with their son or helping out with Board of Reviews before our big post summer camp August Court of Honor. That certainly doesn't always mean "You must be a registered BSA volunteer." Not everybody has to drink the BSA  Kool Flavor aid, but even the most gung ho Scouters need some help from the other parents to make the program a success for everybody's kids, or in my case, other peoples kids. 

 

[David CO]

1 minute ago, Sentinel947 said:

That's really unfortunate if that's how things are in your area. 

It is not only that way in my area, it is that way on this forum. 

[Pselb]

5 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I'd just pick out an easy area that overlaps with something you are doing anyway and offer that once in a while. Gives you some cover and isn't much of a commitment. I know a few parents whose main contribution was wheeling and dealing to hook us up for field trips; they didn't actually ever go camping or meetings much.

Just a couple of ideas to float by you.  Take these Merit Badge counselors I have been reading about.  It would seem that I'm right back to just working with kids like I do every day of the week.  Not a strong point to be considering.

Also if I were to promote the already existing courses the Conservancy, state park, library, etc. offers would it not appear I'm promoting those programs rather than scouting?  If I give promotional materials to my son,  isn't that a bit much to use him as the conduit?  Just a lot of things to think about on my part.  I get enough politics at school (professional) and church (volunteer), and one of the nice things about the other areas is someone else sets them up and all I do is teach and someone else can deal with the hassles.  It's not that I can't handle it, the question is whether or not I want to.