Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[Pale Horse]

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

The BabySitters of America phenomenon existed long before Family Scouting. 

It has existed long before Family Scouting, but now we're qualified to baby sit for girls...well not me personally, I'm the wrong sex to be trusted. 

 

[Sentinel947]

15 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

Ignoring the fact that you got awfully defensive pretty quickly, for the sake of discussion why do you and your wife choose not to volunteer?  

I understand it's your choice, but curious as to why.  The scouting experience, especially at the Pack level, is entirely volunteer driven and reliant on parents.

Not to mention, Cub Scouting is absolutely a Parents and Child activity. 

[Tampa Turtle]

18 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

@Pselb , take it easy. No one and definitely not me stated or implied that you and your wife were using the BSA for babysitting, only that some parents have and long before Family Scouting arrived.

@NJCubScouter, @Sentinel947, @LeCastor

 

When I was a cub leader I remember it was hard work prepping for many meetings. I knew we had some single parents with multiple kids and limited time. All I asked was everybody to do something...to put some skin in the game. Maybe they brought snacks for one meeting, or they made some phone calls to set up a field trip, or led one activity for a portion of one meeting, or knew somebody who knew somebody for a good show and tell at a den meeting. Some could do more than others but everyone should do something. What I think what some scouters get frustrated by are the folks who blow by the den meeting in some expensive car, are heavily involved in their social thing (around here it is some social climbing Gasparilla crewe that demands a lot of time and money), and never return any communications if we leaders had a question. I had a few parents that seemed to feel either (1) BSA somehow payed me or (2) I was a real dope and if I was willing to be their baby sitter by all means they would take advantage of it --in other words I was "the hired help". I had more than one parent who used the den meeting time for extra-martial hooking up time but you find that out later after things have blown up.

Those parents were frustrating because they often seemed to ignore their boys and I would feel I really had a duty to work with them. 

And there are some parents who just seem clueless that things just magically happen.

[Col. Flagg]

Parents and Volunteering:

• Some don't volunteer because they don't understand the program.
• Some don't because they want to understand the program but their unit can't/won't explain it to them.
• Some don't because district and council resources are focused elsewhere other than training and "on boarding" new parents.
• Some don't because it takes away from their "me" time.
• Some don't because they are simply too busy running the rest of their family.
• Some just can't (physical, emotional, psychological reasons).
• Some just won't.
• Some do and jump right in.
• Some eventually do and jump in later.
• Some won't because of unit leader issues.

I am sure this group could come up with more. Point is that "baby sitting" is the most obvious reason because the people who do it don't try to hide it and often brag about what they did while others were watching and engaging with their kid. That's why it is usually the first excuse Scouters go to. Nothing personal.

[Jameson76]

34 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

It has existed long before Family Scouting, but now we're qualified to baby sit for girls...well not me personally, I'm the wrong sex to be trusted. 

 

[Pselb]

1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:

Ignoring the fact that you got awfully defensive pretty quickly, for the sake of discussion why do you and your wife choose not to volunteer?  

I understand it's your choice, but curious as to why.  The scouting experience, especially at the Pack level, is entirely volunteer driven and reliant on parents.

I'll take this as a sincere question.  Aside from a full time job and full time stay-at-home mothering, we are very busy with our children.  With three, they all have their own interests that need to be encouraged and supported as parents.  Our son happens to be interested in Cub Scouts because we are an active outdoor type of family.  Homeschooling i the areas of science and history take my summer vacation time to the limit where we do camping, fishing, nature hikes, plant identification, swimming conservation, etc. in the setting other than a traditional classroom.  Museums, historical places, and such fill up our history "lessons" with on-site learning from the docents.  With that in mind, we use the programs to enhance their home-schooling.  Socially, our children have church, youth programs (that they are interested in), independent educational programs, (nature conservancies, etc.) that they are meeting other people and interacting with them.

As far as us volunteering? Would it be suffice to say that if do not have an interest our children do, why should we volunteer?  We have OUR interests to pursue as well and volunteer elsewhere.  As my father used to say, We "do our own thing."  We have our interests and they have theirs and as a family we work out the details.

At our Pack level, my son has not been "short changed" in anyway because we as parents don't volunteer.  His den leaders don't ever comment that our lack of involvement has stiffed his getting out of the program what it has to offer.  If he has a question that we as parents need to address we do so, but that is very rare.  He seems to enjoy what he's doing and we get no complaints from the program leaders.  Does his involvement affect our family?  In many ways, our daughters have fun sewing onto his shirt whatever awards he might get.  If there's a family invite to the annual banquet, we as a family attend to support his involvement.

With the discussion on this forum tending to be rather negative towards the program, fortunately our son has not felt any impact with it.  I got on the forum when he started and only recently began to post.    With home-schooling on the rise in America and everything else in the youth world tending a downward spiral, it begs the question why?  I left out video games and cell phones as the only exception that is growing at an astounding rate.    As a teacher in a public school, I hear the comments from the schools and from forums such as this and constantly wonder why I want to jump into the fray.  Thus in the interest of my family and my responsibility towards it, I don't.

[skeptic]

[Gwaihir]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

Not to mention, Cub Scouting is absolutely a Parents and Child activity. 

TBF, it wasn't always.  When I was a Cub Scout, everyone went to Cub Scouts after school, and parents didn't show up till after the meeting was over.  The conundrum now is, if parents are now actively told to participate in every meeting and every event well beyond TIgers, what's the incentive to become a leader?  Why bother?  You're just going to be there anyway helping your kid.  The parent child activity aspect for Wolf and above has it's benefits, but it seems to me the dearth in uniformed volunteers has been a significant detriment. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Gwaihir
recrafted my words, to better express my thought.

[Pselb]

1 hour ago, Tampa Turtle said:

When I was a cub leader I remember it was hard work prepping for many meetings. I knew we had some single parents with multiple kids and limited time. All I asked was everybody to do something...to put some skin in the game. Maybe they brought snacks for one meeting, or they made some phone calls to set up a field trip, or led one activity for a portion of one meeting, or knew somebody who knew somebody for a good show and tell at a den meeting. Some could do more than others but everyone should do something. What I think what some scouters get frustrated by are the folks who blow by the den meeting in some expensive car, are heavily involved in their social thing (around here it is some social climbing Gasparilla crewe that demands a lot of time and money), and never return any communications if we leaders had a question. I had a few parents that seemed to feel either (1) BSA somehow payed me or (2) I was a real dope and if I was willing to be their baby sitter by all means they would take advantage of it --in other words I was "the hired help". I had more than one parent who used the den meeting time for extra-martial hooking up time but you find that out later after things have blown up.

Those parents were frustrating because they often seemed to ignore their boys and I would feel I really had a duty to work with them. 

And there are some parents who just seem clueless that things just magically happen.

"All I asked was everybody to do something...to put some skin in the game."  And as a youth participant he does.  I did not sign up to be part of the program, but my son's interest does endorse him as having "skin in the game."

I can also assure you that on a teacher's salary, we don't have an expensive car.    And in the interest of our son, we do answer all questions pertaining to his scout activity.  We don't need to do things for "the den".  As part of his home-schooling, he has a ready audience for any presentations he may make on the various nature and historical opportunities he has with his family.   I hear all the time on this forum, the boys should be running the show and my son is well on his way to figuring out what that means.    As a qualified K-12 teacher, my expertise is HS history,  Does anyone really want me to put on a presentation for 3-4th graders?  Not likely.  Do they want my son to bring in shells from the beaches, special plants and old airplanes he's taken pictures of?  After all, it's his interest and his program.  I don't make a very good helicopter parent nor do I want to participate in the hassle of those who are.

[RememberSchiff]

6 minutes ago, Pselb said:

As a qualified K-12 teacher, my expertise is HS history,  Does anyone really want me to put on a presentation for 3-4th graders?

Yes make it engaging and hands-on.  For example,  my den built a  full-size historical reproduction (ductwork) of a Congreve rocket (British). It was 10ft long. 

https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/rockets-inspired-francis-scott-key-180952399/

Bear Adventure: Paws for Action (Duty to Country)

Complete Requirement 1 and two others from Requirements 2-4.

1. Learn about our nation’s flag. Display it at home for one month. Say the Pledge of Allegiance and learn its meaning.
2. Do at least one of the following.

   A. Find out about two famous Americans. Share what you learned.

   B. Find out where places of historical interest are located in or near your community, town, or city. Go and visit one of them with your family or den.

[Pselb]

26 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes make it engaging and hands-on.  For example,  my den built a  full-size historical reproduction (ductwork) of a Congreve rocket (British). It was 10ft long. 

https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/rockets-inspired-francis-scott-key-180952399/

Bear Adventure: Paws for Action (Duty to Country)

Complete Requirement 1 and two others from Requirements 2-4.

1. Learn about our nation’s flag. Display it at home for one month. Say the Pledge of Allegiance and learn its meaning.
2. Do at least one of the following.

   A. Find out about two famous Americans. Share what you learned.

   B. Find out where places of historical interest are located in or near your community, town, or city. Go and visit one of them with your family or den.

My son is well qualified to do that.  We've talked about the Flag Code, the flag flies outside our home all the time, and he knows the Pledge and a bit about what it means.

He's been to Springfield, ILL and visited Lincoln's tomb, been to Mt. Vernon, camped in national parks (Roosevelt), been to Boston, MA, Washington DC, etc. and sharing what he know?  Just ask him.

The local library has done historical tours of the local area and we've visited just about everything there is possible within an hour's drive.

So.... where do I fit in here?  It's his program, let him do it.  Never having been exposed to classroom lecture style of teaching except at Sunday School, I think he's better qualified than I am to share with the other boys in the den.  I do the lecture thing, both at school and at church.  He'd do a better job than me.

[Sentinel947]

1 hour ago, Gwaihir said:

TBF, it wasn't always.  When I was a Cub Scout, everyone went to Cub Scouts after school, and parents didn't show up till after the meeting was over.  The conundrum now is, if parents are now actively told to participate in every meeting and every event well beyond TIgers, what's the incentive to become a leader?  Why bother?  You're just going to be there anyway helping your kid.  The parent child activity aspect for Wolf and above has it's benefits, but it seems to me the dearth in uniformed volunteers has been a significant detriment. 

A time where schools were geographically tighter, and the BSA was allowed in schools... 

Fair enough. I'm pretty young by forum standards. When I was a Cub in the early 2000's most of the parents were involved with their kids in Cubs. Not every single meeting, but helping with requirements, chaperoning on outings, that sort of stuff. There isn't wrong with that, and we don't need every parent to be a registered volunteer. But we do need parents that are involved with their kid's scouting and support it, which it seems @Pselb and their family do well. 

There's a difference between the "Baby Sitters of America" meme and a family that is supportive of their kid and the program but aren't registered volunteers. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Sentinel947

[an_old_DC]

3 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

.....

What I think what some scouters get frustrated by are the folks who blow by the den meeting in some expensive car, are heavily involved in their social thing (around here it is some social climbing Gasparilla crewe that demands a lot of time and money), and never return any communications if we leaders had a question. I had a few parents that seemed to feel either (1) BSA somehow payed me or (2) I was a real dope and if I was willing to be their baby sitter by all means they would take advantage of it --in other words I was "the hired help". I had more than one parent who used the den meeting time for extra-martial hooking up time but you find that out later after things have blown up.

Those parents were frustrating because they often seemed to ignore their boys and I would feel I really had a duty to work with them. 

And there are some parents who just seem clueless that things just magically happen.

 

Sounds like you were at my pack and den meetings, but your forgot drop off the son and go to a coffee bar or wine bar.

 

[Pselb]

Or you can just skip the coffee/wine bar and go home to be with the other kids that need your attention as well.

[numbersnerd]

2 hours ago, Pselb said:

I'll take this as a sincere question.  Aside from a full time job and full time stay-at-home mothering, we are very busy with our children.  With three, they all have their own interests that need to be encouraged and supported as parents.  Our son happens to be interested in Cub Scouts because we are an active outdoor type of family.  Homeschooling i the areas of science and history take my summer vacation time to the limit where we do camping, fishing, nature hikes, plant identification, swimming conservation, etc. in the setting other than a traditional classroom.  Museums, historical places, and such fill up our history "lessons" with on-site learning from the docents.  With that in mind, we use the programs to enhance their home-schooling.  Socially, our children have church, youth programs (that they are interested in), independent educational programs, (nature conservancies, etc.) that they are meeting other people and interacting with them.

As far as us volunteering? Would it be suffice to say that if do not have an interest our children do, why should we volunteer?  We have OUR interests to pursue as well and volunteer elsewhere.  As my father used to say, We "do our own thing."  We have our interests and they have theirs and as a family we work out the details.

At our Pack level, my son has not been "short changed" in anyway because we as parents don't volunteer.  His den leaders don't ever comment that our lack of involvement has stiffed his getting out of the program what it has to offer.  If he has a question that we as parents need to address we do so, but that is very rare.  He seems to enjoy what he's doing and we get no complaints from the program leaders.  Does his involvement affect our family?  In many ways, our daughters have fun sewing onto his shirt whatever awards he might get.  If there's a family invite to the annual banquet, we as a family attend to support his involvement.

With the discussion on this forum tending to be rather negative towards the program, fortunately our son has not felt any impact with it.  I got on the forum when he started and only recently began to post.    With home-schooling on the rise in America and everything else in the youth world tending a downward spiral, it begs the question why?  I left out video games and cell phones as the only exception that is growing at an astounding rate.    As a teacher in a public school, I hear the comments from the schools and from forums such as this and constantly wonder why I want to jump into the fray.  Thus in the interest of my family and my responsibility towards it, I don't.

You make it sound as if those who DO volunteer have ample time on their hands and few outside interests and lives of their own.