Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[Tampa Turtle]

1 hour ago, Gwaihir said:

side note, I love how the cap is no longer part of complete uniforming.  

Now that is just being picky. Besides, makes it hard to see that they are girls. 

[Jameson76]

21 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Now that is just being picky. Besides, makes it hard to see that they are girls. 

They will put bling and sequins on hats, will be simple

[Eagle94-A1]

14 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

They will put bling and sequins on hats, will be simple

 

DON'T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( and yep, I shouting a warning at ya   )

Seriously, having worked for National supply an knowing that many of the folks have little to no experience in the program, I can see someone coming up with this idea and implementing it in order to make a few bucks. Heck it may be one of their "nonuniform" items that folks will wear with their uniform.

[cyphertext]

17 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I think that is the major problem. Webelos IS suppose to be the transition period between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. They are suppose to be treated as Boy Scouts but still under the direction of an adult Den Leader,  and if lucky a Den Chief.

It has been a few years since I was involved at the Cub Scout level, so things may have changed... but back then, the training for the Webelos den leader didn't exactly prepare them.  The problem I see is that unless the leader has been involved with Boy Scouts previously as a youth, or has had a child in Boy Scouts, they just don't know what Boy Scouts is.  Hard to transition boys to a program that you know nothing about!  

The Webelos program itself was not geared towards transition either when my son went through.  The Outdoorsman Activity is the only one that I remember that encouraged a troop visit in the requirements.  If it is really a transition, then the Webelos den should be engaged with a Troop as well.  However, that puts an extra burden on the PLC of a troop to prepare more things for Webelos to come and do with the troop.

Webelos is an awkward time in the program... too old for Cub Scouts, but too young for a troop.

[qwazse]

Call me contrarian, but Webelos really don't need to engage with a troop at all. Be nice if they do so they earn AoL etc ...

But, they'll do just as well learning from scratch in a troop that their buddy invites them to the following year.

I think we would all be better served to

1. revise the AoL requirement to simply say, "Make friends with a Boy Scout, have him teach you about the Scout rank." Then
2. revise the First Class Rank requirement to say, "Befriend an AoL Scout or someone your age, teach him/her about Scout rank, with your PL/SPL's permission, invite him/her to visit your troop on a meeting night or other activity."

This takes the onus off the DL to be the perfect patrol leader, etc ... and puts it on the community of scouts, not just the den chief, to acclimate a boy to troop life.

[Eagle94-A1]

3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Call me contrarian, but Webelos really don't need to engage with a troop at all. Be nice if they do so they earn AoL etc ...

But, they'll do just as well learning from scratch in a troop that their buddy invites them to the following year.

I think we would all be better served to

1. revise the AoL requirement to simply say, "Make friends with a Boy Scout, have him teach you about the Scout rank." Then
2. revise the First Class Rank requirement to say, "Befriend an AoL Scout or someone your age, teach him/her about Scout rank, with your PL/SPL's permission, invite him/her to visit your troop on a meeting night or other activity."

This takes the onus off the DL to be the perfect patrol leader, etc ... and puts it on the community of scouts, not just the den chief, to acclimate a boy to troop life.

Part of the reason for the AOL is to prepare them for Boy Scouts. Engaging with a troop has been one of the requirements since as long as I can remember, and if memory serves, one of the original requirements. Heck I remember when a man had to be the WDL to simulate Boy Scouts more closely.

One of the challenges i've found is that Scouts do not stay around for long if they do NOT engage with a troop. Give you an example. For the past 2 years, the Webelos from our feeder troop have not camped with us. One den visited us at camp for a few hours and left,  the other den used the joint Scouting for Food activity for the outdoor requirement. 4/5s remain of the first den, and 1of 3 remain from the second den. Contrast that with camping and it is much higher. Out of oldest son's den 2 of the 4 camped with the troop, and hte other two transfered over because of them. Middle son's den had 4 camp with us, and all four are still here.

[gblotter]

19 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I think that is the major problem. Webelos IS suppose to be the transition period between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. They are suppose to be treated as Boy Scouts but still under the direction of an adult Den Leader,  and if lucky a Den Chief.

In the LDS Packs I have seen, there were limited transition activities between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. I remember that my son's Webelos Den visited a troop meeting and helped with a troop fundraiser. And of course there was a crossing over ceremony from Webelos to the New Scout Patrol. However, the New Scout Patrol was really his introduction vehicle into Boy Scouts. For my son, the Webelos period was mainly focused on earning his Arrow of Light.

I consider myself rather expert in most Boy Scout topics, but I relied on others to guide my son through the Cub Scout program. Even today, much of Cub Scout advancement seems like a confusing mess to me (although I'm sure it makes perfect sense to others who have taken the time to understand the program better).

[cyphertext]

11 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Part of the reason for the AOL is to prepare them for Boy Scouts. Engaging with a troop has been one of the requirements since as long as I can remember, and if memory serves, one of the original requirements. Heck I remember when a man had to be the WDL to simulate Boy Scouts more closely.

One of the challenges i've found is that Scouts do not stay around for long if they do NOT engage with a troop. Give you an example. For the past 2 years, the Webelos from our feeder troop have not camped with us. One den visited us at camp for a few hours and left,  the other den used the joint Scouting for Food activity for the outdoor requirement. 4/5s remain of the first den, and 1of 3 remain from the second den. Contrast that with camping and it is much higher. Out of oldest son's den 2 of the 4 camped with the troop, and hte other two transfered over because of them. Middle son's den had 4 camp with us, and all four are still here.

When my son went through, there was no requirement to camp with a troop.  Wasn't even suggested by the handbook, nor did a troop invite us to.  We did a troop visit with a couple of the local troops and I honestly didn't care for those either because they were dog and pony shows for the Webelos, not typical troop meetings or activities.  

[cocomax]

Arrow of Light Adventure: Scouting Adventure

Complete the following Requirements.

1. Prepare yourself to become a Boy Scout by completing at least a-c below:

   a. Repeat from memory the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. In your own words, explain their meanings to your den leader, parent, or guardian.

   b. Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe for your den leader, parent, or guardian some ways you have shown Scout spirit by conducting yourself according to the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan.

   c. Give the Boy Scout sign, salute, and handshake. Explain when to use each.

   d. Describe the First Class Scout badge, and tell what each part stands for. Explain the significance of the First Class Scout badge.

   e. Repeat from memory the Pledge of Allegiance. In your own words, explain its meaning

2. Visit a Boy Scout troop meeting with your parent or guardian and, if possible, with your den members and leaders. After the meeting, do the following:

   a. Describe how the Scouts in the troop provide its leadership.

   b. Describe the four steps of Boy Scout advancement.

   c. Describe ranks in Boy Scouting and how they are earned.

   d. Describe what merit badges are and how they are earned.

3. Practice the patrol method in your den for one month by doing the following:

   a. Explain the patrol method. Describe the types of patrols that might be part of a Boy Scout troop.

   b. Hold an election to choose the patrol leader.

   c. Develop a patrol name and emblem (if your den does not already have one), as well as a patrol flag and yell. Explain how a patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell create patrol spirit.

   d. As a patrol, make plans to participate in a Boy Scout troop’s campout or other outdoor activity.

4. With your Webelos den leader, parent, or guardian, participate in a Boy Scout troop’s campout or other outdoor activity. Use the patrol method while on the outing.
5. Do the following:

   a. Show how to tie a square knot, two half hitches, and a taut-line hitch. Explain how each knot is used.

   b. Show the proper care of a rope by learning how to whip and fuse the ends of different kinds of rope.

6. Demonstrate your knowledge of the pocketknife safety rules and the pocketknife pledge. If you have not already done so, earn your Whittling Chip card.

[Eagle94-A1]

Outdoorsman Activity badge, which use to be required for AOL when I was  a scout had such a requirement

#4 With your parent or guardian, camp overnight with a Boy Scout troop. Sleep in a tent that you have helped pitch.

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

23 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Part of the reason for the AOL is to prepare them for Boy Scouts. Engaging with a troop has been one of the requirements since as long as I can remember, and if memory serves, one of the original requirements. Heck I remember when a man had to be the WDL to simulate Boy Scouts more closely.

One of the challenges i've found is that Scouts do not stay around for long if they do NOT engage with a troop. Give you an example. For the past 2 years, the Webelos from our feeder troop have not camped with us. One den visited us at camp for a few hours and left,  the other den used the joint Scouting for Food activity for the outdoor requirement. 4/5s remain of the first den, and 1of 3 remain from the second den. Contrast that with camping and it is much higher. Out of oldest son's den 2 of the 4 camped with the troop, and hte other two transfered over because of them. Middle son's den had 4 camp with us, and all four are still here.

In my experience those boys who did some coordinating with a Troop were more likely to cross over and stay active after the first three months. Not everyone, but it helped. Ones who did not or had no camping experience with a Troop as Webelos guest were much more likely to have a first year 'crisis' experience at a campout. 

We have had the best results with those boys that attended a council "Back to Brownsea" event where they were divided up into patrols for a weekend and did lots of boy scout things led by boy scouts. 

In some cases some kids were being pushed along by parents into Scouts and that has always had mixed results. Boys who hate camping are always gonna have issues.

[Tampa Turtle]

46 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Call me contrarian, but Webelos really don't need to engage with a troop at all. Be nice if they do so they earn AoL etc ...

 

Contrarian.

[cocomax]

Our AOL Cub den will be going to a Camporee (and camping with) with our Boy Scout troop and going on a camping trip to Moro Bay this spring.  The whole AOL Cub den will be join the troop as new scouts later this spring after cross over, they have already been to 3 troop meetings. 

I thought this was normal for AOL dens to do stuff with their future troop, I am surprised there are AOL dens not doing so.

 

  

Edited February 15, 2018 by cocomax

[FireStone]

23 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

Devils advocate, if they're trying to set a tone of separate but equal, this is the mental imagery you'd do it with.  girls all together without boys, doing cub scouting. 

Good point. It would be nice to see marketing that is dual-purpose and shows boys and girls together, but logistically that kind of goes against what is actually being proposed in the program. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by FireStone

[gblotter]

On 2/12/2018 at 10:51 AM, WisconsinMomma said:

Regarding camp,  I wonder if a solution might be for camps to have all-girls' weeks set aside for female troops or patrols. So perhaps 5 weeks of summer are for males and one week is for females.  Might be an option -- I saw a camp that had one week set aside for LDS scouts only.   It will be interesting to see how camps plan and organize.  Of course there may also be opportunities for strategic campsite placement, etc.

Camp Meriwether in Oregon has already published their plan for the 2019 camping season.

See https://www.cpcbsa.org/meriwether

Out of 8 weeks, only two will be set aside as "Boys Only".

It seems to me they have it backwards - perhaps only two weeks should be open to girls.

The tail is wagging the dog.