Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[cocomax]

I have been reading a lot of news coming out of Europe, it looks to me Co-Ed scouting works really well in Europe, I see no evidence Co-Ed scouting of being a problem in Europe.

[Col. Flagg]

Just now, cocomax said:

I have been reading a lot of news coming out of Europe, it looks to me Co-Ed scouting works really well in Europe, I see no evidence Co-Ed scouting of being a problem in Europe.

Only that it is not the same program that we've been running here.

[cocomax]

1 minute ago, Col. Flagg said:

Only that it is not the same program that we've been running here.

In Europe the school system and mothers work very hard to soak young boys in feminine values like accepting responsibility for household chores, being caring, understanding and attentive, and bend to every wish of the woman. This has produced a generation of soft, insecure men, who are out of touch with their masculine nature, identity and strength. This allows them to work really well with co-ed groups without any problems.

However here in the USA there are still a large number of  men and boys that suffering from toxic masculinity, including myself.  There are a bunch of them in the Boy Scouts, boys and old scouters. 

If the boys don't like what the BSA is doing and get upset about it they will quietly just walk away,  go camping with their dad,  join sports teams and play video games and let the girls have the Boy Scouts. The boys have no real voice in the BSA other than walking away.    

  

[EmberMike]

2 hours ago, cocomax said:

In Europe the school system and mothers work very hard to soak young boys in feminine values like accepting responsibility for household chores, being caring, understanding and attentive, and bend to every wish of the woman. This has produced a generation of soft, insecure men, who are out of touch with their masculine nature, identity and strength...

Yeah, we wouldn't want our scouts to pick up on any of that garbage, right? Being responsible, doing chores, caring about others, being attentive. That would be awful. 

 

[Oldscout448]

"The boys have no real voice in BSA. other than walking away"

No I guess they dont.

And that is the  real tragedy 

[Cambridgeskip]

7 hours ago, cocomax said:

In Europe the school system and mothers work very hard to soak young boys in feminine values like accepting responsibility for household chores, being caring, understanding and attentive, and bend to every wish of the woman. This has produced a generation of soft, insecure men, who are out of touch with their masculine nature, identity and strength. This allows them to work really well with co-ed groups without any problems.    

  

I am genuinely unclear on whether this is serious or satire.

[qwazse]

7 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

"The boys have no real voice in BSA. other than walking away"

No I guess they dont.

And that is the  real tragedy 

Actually, they have had a voice. They joined venturing, rose to positions in the national cabinet (similar thing hope so via O/A) and have been telling key-three that we scouters need to stop being petty for a couple of decades.

And that may be a real victory.

@cocomax, have you actually talked to scouts from other associations. Or, have you camped with our boys when a couple of them were afflicted with the drama bug?

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Actually, they have had a voice. They joined venturing, rose to positions in the national cabinet (similar thing hope so via O/A) and have been telling key-three that we scouters need to stop being petty for a couple of decades.

While I admit my dealing with Venturing are very limited, I do know that I can count on one hand the number of years my council had an "active" VOA.

As far as the OA, I've had a lot more interactions.

As a youth officer and 21-23 year old chapter advisor, I was pretty much ignored. I had to get one of my friends to pass off my ideas as his to get them even considered. I had one chapter chief so ticked off at the condecesion of one district committee meeting, he vowed never to attend again. And to this day, his successors have not attended anymore ( approx 7 years now). Talking to the current lodge chief, i discovered that after one incident, which I witnessed years ago, the lodge chiefs have not been attending the council executive board meetings because their voices are ignored. This lodge chief has already commented that he WILL be attending these meetings, and he will represent the voice of the youth in the council whether the adults like it or not.

As for the incident that caused the LCs to stop attending, let's just say that the overwhelming opinion of the youth was not to do something. I want to say something like 90% of the youth did not want something to be done. The Lodge Advisor was furious at the results, and overrode the vote by saying "I don't care what you want, this is how it is going to be." When youth and adults started protesting by wearing their sashes inside out, he yelled " wear  them properly or don't wear them at all." over half the people in attendance no longer wore their sashes.

So forgive me if I do not think that youth have an actual voice that is listend to at the national level.

[Tampa Turtle]

(BTW I do not think girls showing up in my Troop is the same DEFCON level as war with Korea)

I think now the decision is made individuals can either live with or not. I feel sad if we really are losing something and sad for boys and scouters who may leave--on that we shall see.'

I think speculation is fair given how many holes in the announced-so-far policy by National is at the scout level. I cannot figure if they are being stupid, intellectually lazy, or sneaky. I do not think they have a very workable plan and will make us figure it all out. I am not hearing much organizational wisdom trickling down to the Council and District level...at least around here. I do hear some genuine hurt feelings from long time folks who are not planning to make a fuss.

Last night I was on a BOR (I know, I know as an ASM I am not supposed to be on it but they were short a person). The lad was going up for Star at 12. Fast tracking to Eagle but does everything he is asked (though pretty much the minimal on camping and patrol activities--you know when Mom asks when she can drop off and pick up at the campsite so he still gets credit for one night of camping) so he was gonna pass. A mom sat in on the BOR and didn't say much and was pretty tense.

I respect this woman's opinion (she is also active service member single mom) so I asked if anything was wrong. She expressed her frustration over how the Troop and BSA in general has so enabled scouts to get Eagle so fast (the boy in particular attended two summer camps to load up on Merit Badges) that they are missing the point of developing leadership in scouts by going so fast and what is the point of Eagle if it is just an academic exercise. She makes her son 'do it the right way' and he is mad at her because he sees boys 2-3 years younger the same rank but less active in the Troop. She said the interference of the parents, mostly "remote control moms" were making it easier on their sons but ruining scouting. It is the same arguments we talk about here but it was refreshing hearing from a parent. (she also said she would welcome 'hiker girls' if in exchange we could just ban all the adults but a couple men). 

So...I reiterate the bigger threat to the program is the move away from the traditional program youth-led, mixed-age, patrol based outdoor program.

[Back Pack]

A mom attended a bor and was worrying about fast tracking and enablement?

[cyphertext]

50 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

So...I reiterate the bigger threat to the program is the move away from the traditional program youth-led, mixed-age, patrol based outdoor program.

I agree with this.  With my own son, he was on the fast track as well... He earned Life Scout in just over 2 years and 6 months.  There was not an intentional push by his mother or I, but he was afforded many opportunities to complete merit badges in the first troop he was in.  I told him that we were going to slow him down on advancement...  I didn't want to see Eagle until he was in high school.  I was afraid he might "Eagle Out" before he was even old enough to do high adventure!  I didn't want him to participate less, just get his focus off of advancement.

So, the first Summer Camp after we made this decision, he is selecting what merit badges he wants to do.  He asked me if he could really sign up for whatever classes he wanted, because his prior troop required each boy to take an Eagle required merit badge class.  I told him to sign up for whatever he wanted.  He signed up for all of the water based activities and loved every minute of it.  Came home and said that was the most fun he has had at Summer Camp because he wasn't worried about rank requirements and finishing merit badges.  That's what camp should be... having fun!  And if you happen to sign off some requirements as well, that's gravy!

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by cyphertext

[Eagle94-A1]

20 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I respect this woman's opinion (she is also active service member single mom) so I asked if anything was wrong. She expressed her frustration over how the Troop and BSA in general has so enabled scouts to get Eagle so fast (the boy in particular attended two summer camps to load up on Merit Badges) that they are missing the point of developing leadership in scouts by going so fast and what is the point of Eagle if it is just an academic exercise. She makes her son 'do it the right way' and he is mad at her because he sees boys 2-3 years younger the same rank but less active in the Troop. She said the interference of the parents, mostly "remote control moms" were making it easier on their sons but ruining scouting. It is the same arguments we talk about here but it was refreshing hearing from a parent. (she also said she would welcome 'hiker girls' if in exchange we could just ban all the adults but a couple men). 

So...I reiterate the bigger threat to the program is the move away from the traditional program youth-led, mixed-age, patrol based outdoor program.

 I so wish I had more parents with this attitude.

Monday night we had one mom post on FB that her son needed someone to sign off on some Second Class requirements. This is the same Scout who refuses sleep away from daddy. While he was working on requirements, Mom was lamenting the fact that he's been in the troop 10 months as is still only Tenderfoot (don't ask) and that he needs to be First Class by April. I had to talk to her about it is more important that he knows the skills and that a First Class Scout is not only capable of camping on his own, but is suppose to help others. Sadly I don't think she gets it.

Then again, maybe I am being a hypocrite. I've reminded middle son that he needs to get First Class by end of May so he can go on the AT trip he's been wanting to do since last summer. It's all on him.

[Jameson76]

42 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

(BTW I do not think girls showing up in my Troop is the same DEFCON level as war with Korea)

 

To be clear, at this point, Girls cannot join your troop nor in the immediate future would they.  Yes that will no doubt be subject to change, but wanted to level set (and I know you were being dramatic)

44 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I cannot figure if they are being stupid, intellectually lazy, or sneaky. I do not think they have a very workable plan and will make us figure it all out. I am not hearing much organizational wisdom trickling down to the Council and District level...at least around here. I do hear some genuine hurt feelings from long time folks who are not planning to make a fuss.

Agree 100%.  I am amazed that the National BSA office and board made this momentous decision, and literally had no real workable implementation plan.  Anyone who has spent any actual time at the unit level can come up with multiple scenarios that need to be resolved.  Admittedly they may not have the answers yet, but the shallowness and lack of even acknowledging there may be questions is stunning. 

48 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

She expressed her frustration over how the Troop and BSA in general has so enabled scouts to get Eagle so fast (the boy in particular attended two summer camps to load up on Merit Badges) that they are missing the point of developing leadership in scouts by going so fast and what is the point of Eagle if it is just an academic exercise.

What she is saying is a challenge and concern.  That being said there are in any endeavor minimum requirements.  As long as the Scout meets the minimum, they have in fact met the requirements.  I have conversations with Scouts and parents and try try try to remind some of them that Scouting is a journey and not so much a destination.  Scouts need to enjoy the trip.  Every outing is not about advancement.  Sometimes we go to the lake to get towed behind boats and canoe around because it's fun, sometimes we hike in the rain because it is a personal challenge, sometimes we climb that mountain because (wait for it) it is there. (and we can spit off the ledge)

[Tampa Turtle]

I predict girls will find a way to join Troops affiliated with this Forum before the official date by National. 

[Jameson76]

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I predict girls will find a way to join Troops affiliated with this Forum before the official date by National. 

No doubt they are already have.