Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[Cambridgeskip]

8 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The UK didn't see the rise for over 30 years. And the Canadian case is a great example of the BSA is basically following the same model.

Barry

With the exception of Venture scouts the Uk didn't go coed till 1991 (local option) and fully coed 2007. Number started rising in 2005. 

Long way from a 30 year gap.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Cambridgeskip

[Eagledad]

Just now, Cambridgeskip said:

With the exception of Venture scouts the Uk didn't go coed till 1991 (local option) and fully coed 2003. Number started rising in 2005. 

Long way from a 30 year gap.

I stand corrected.

Barry

[gblotter]

29 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Only a few remember whatever it was that happened.

Frankly, that is what terrifies me about all this.

I received my Eagle in 1974, so I lived it. The word crisis is not too strong. I have been reading an excellent book on BSA history that includes a chapter about the debacles of the 1970s. I may quote a few paragraphs for additional perspective. Back then, BSA still had sufficient numbers to survive as an organization after the mass exodus. Such losses today would end the movement entirely.

Edited February 12, 2018 by gblotter

[cocomax]

Michael B. Surbaugh CES expressed some very anti-co-ed feelings at the national jamboree, he said things like a "single sex program was very important to boys development" and we would NOT be going co-ed.    

Maybe Michael should step back or step down. . . 

[gblotter]

16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

BSA is going coed, that decision has been made.

Yes - I know. I keep hoping I will wake up from this nightmare.

[cocomax]

1 minute ago, gblotter said:

Yes - I know. I keep hoping I will wake up from this nightmare.

. . . but but sometimes the rumors turn out to be false. . . . right?    

[T2Eagle]

8 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Adults volunteering in the BSA has gone DOWN year-on-year. The decline has DOUBLED since 2013!! What amazing program has BSA developed that is miraculously going to get the parents of girls to all of a sudden volunteer??

I think there are certainly going to be challenges, including with finding sufficient volunteers to staff new units, but I think your last sentence indicates where they're going to come from.  I may be a little off in my math, but I think roughly half of all volunteers are already the parents of a girl. 

I suspect that's where much of the crop of needed volunteers will come from, scouters who have daughters as well as sons.  Different people place different emphasis on what programs they most want to invest their time in, but my experience is that the folks I know who are volunteers, men and women, are volunteers for both their sons and daughters activities.  I suspect there will be enough scouters who decide the program is a great program, and worthwhile for their daughters as well as their sons, and there's your labor pool.

 

 

[qwazse]

21 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

Anyone can cherry-pick any scout organization they like to make their point. There are over 50 million scouts around the world in various organizations. We're talking about 3 organizations in particular here, which collectively make up less than 3 million scouts. 

The scouting world is pretty big, and a lot of it is co-ed. I have no idea how co-ed affects overall membership, and I doubt anyone here knows either. Although I'd be highly impressed if anyone could compile info from numerous scouting orgs and draw some scientific conclusions. 

This was discussed in another thread a few years back. I haven't managed to put the data in a good sharable format, so here are my conclusions and you'll have to just hope I got these sweeping generalizations right:

• Aside from Indonesia and some former communist-block countries, co-ed WOSM organizations have generally seen a decline in membership, although not as steep as us.
  • However, they nearly all have uniformly lost boys.
  • The percentage of boys served in respective countries has dropped.
  • Although Scouts UK's census has recovered after three decades, it has not gained the number or percent population of boys it once had.
• Eastern European countries have generally seen scouting grow, with usually one scoutmaster for Cubs, Scouts, and Rovers. There were just too few adults who survived as scouts to remember how to start the program (or any other youth program for that matter).
• It's interesting that many conservative nations have co-ed scout associations, but those associations are also fairly new to the WOSM.
• Latin America? No data. Sorry.
• Two unisex organizations: Pakistan and Saudi have seen large increases. Saudi because its program is fairly new. Pakistan because, well, I think in general the young men have a sense of adventure and daring-do that some of us guys may covet.

If you all are willing to pitch in for my ticket, I'll go to Indonesia and report back on what they are doing right.

[gblotter]

35 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I am not sure of your role in Scouting, but if you have extremely anti-co-ed feelings you may want to step back from spreading those opinions among the youth.

Yes, I am definitely anti-coed - no doubt about it.  You will get your wish soon enough. 2018 be my last year as a registered Scouter. After 10+ years as Scoutmaster (two terms), and service at the district level, I will no longer poison youth with my opinions.

BSA obviously wants to appeal to a different kind of Scout and a different kind of Scouter. It is clear that national leadership does not care what I (or anyone else, for that matter) think on this topic. I will step aside to make room for the changes that will be forced through regardless.

Edited February 12, 2018 by gblotter

[an_old_DC]

35 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

2)  Most parents today were not in BSA leadership in the 1970s and do not relate to that period of Scouting.  Only a few remember whatever it was that happened.

 

This just makes me sad and also illustrates why it is so difficult for some troops to run effectively--parents don't know the culture and wont learn it because they are too busy trying to change it to what they want.

[WisconsinMomma]

Just now, an_old_DC said:

 

This just makes me sad and also illustrates why it is so difficult for some troops to run effectively--parents don't know the culture and wont learn it because they are too busy trying to change it to what they want.

 I was born in 1970, and I'm on the older side of parents in Scouting.  The culture is today's culture, not 1970's culture.  

[Cambridgeskip]

7 minutes ago, qwazse said:

T

• • Although Scouts UK's census has recovered after three decades, it has not gained the number or percent population of boys it once had.

As I've said more than once I would be very hesitant to land the losses in the UK in the 1990s and early 2000s at the door of going coed. There was simply too much else going on.

I was a scout till 1994 before moving to Venture scouts. I can tell you that the image of scouting in the UK at the time sucked. And it sucked becase it stagnated. Nobody was quitting because of girls joining. They were quitting because of the awful uniform which hadn't been updated since the 1960s. They left because the age ranges which worked in the 1960s no longer reflected natural peer groups. They left because HQ were utterly clueless about PR and thought that putting an elderly chief scout, major general (retired) whoever it was on TV in uniform and renewing his promise was the way to get kids through the door. Dear God it was awful. And I remember the hard time I got at school for being a scout. Trust me, none of it was remotely to do with girls. 

Things turned around because finally HQ got a grip and changed what needed to be changed. The change to scouts/explorers/network, the updated uniform, the full time PR staff at HQ that knew what they were doing.

[WisconsinMomma]

14 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Yes, I am definitely anti-coed - no doubt about it.  You will get your wish soon enough. 2018 be my last year as a registered Scouter. After 10+ years as Scoutmaster (two terms), and service at the district level, I will no longer poison youth with my opinions.

BSA obviously wants to appeal to a different kind of Scout and a different kind of Scouter. It is clear that national leadership does not care what I (or anyone else, for that matter) think on this topic. I will step aside to make room for the changes that will be forced through regardless.

For the record, I didn't say you should leave Scouting, but I think you should hold back from sharing strong anti-female or anti-coed views with your troop.  As it stands, girl patrols or troops will be separate.

Thanks for everything you've given to Scouting.  I have 5 years in and my family is committed for at least the next 10. 

 

[an_old_DC]

2 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

 I was born in 1970, and I'm on the older side of parents in Scouting.  The culture is today's culture, not 1970's culture.  

I am talking about BSA and troop culture not whatever you think I meant. 

[WisconsinMomma]

2 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

I am talking about BSA and troop culture not whatever you think I meant. 

Oh, I thought you were still running with gblotter's idea that the 1970's changes ruined everything.   Yes, learning the BSA ways is difficult, but people seem to muddle through and there are ample training materials.  We can start another helicopter parents thread, though!