Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[cyphertext]

3 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I haven't spoken with boys on this matter yet because --- we currently do not have any plans to add girl dens.  I am curious to see what our CO advises.  If they endorse girl dens, then I think we should explore how to organize things.   But boys will have boy dens, and that is their space.  I think we can minimize the impact to them while welcoming girls.   Pack meetings?  I'm not sure.  It will be interesting to see what people think and feel about it. 

I don't think the impact will be quite the same at the Cub Scout level.  I am referring to the change at the Troop level, as I believe most others are as well.  Cub Scouts is very different from Boy Scouts.  

[Gwaihir]

Just now, Tampa Turtle said:

Care to pick a number? Just for fun.

I left my gambling days behind me in my 20s.   

[EmberMike]

8 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

it's totally speculation.  this is all thought exercise since nothing is in place.  However, didn't the SCOTUS already rule BSA could create their own membership rules?  Wouldn't that ruling mean they could change back to all boy?  

Changing back to all boy means actually kicking out girls already in Cub Scouts. It would be PR suicide. Never going to happen.

It doesn't matter what legal protections they might have to do so. The public backlash would kill the organization. 

In the highly unlikely scenario in which they did actually kick the girls out, I'd hang up my uniform permanently. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by EmberMike

[cocomax]

2 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

I would think you must be jesting , i mean come on " worms?!"except I remember IOLS training a few years back where the wood tools instructor refused to teach us how to use an axe or Hatchet. Saying that they were too dangerous for Scouts to use and that we should restrict Scouts and scouters to saws and splitting froes.

In fact he didn't even have an axe or Hatchet at the site.  I managed to keep quiet untill stated  that a saw was always fasted than an ax.

I offered to have a contest me and my ax vs: him and his saw.  He declined. 

I later saw a Scout Troop from his district or the scouts for trying to split some small logs about 6in in diameter with an ax.

Their technique consisted of placing the acts on top of the log taking a second log and beating the back of the axe head until the disappeared then they beat on the handle.  I told him they're going to break the handle they told me they knew but it was the only way they were allowed to use the axes.

 

Scouts Honor, I am telling the truth. That was part of my IOLS training last year.  They also taught us that we needed prepare food over a tarp, to catch food particles and use window screen to screen the top layer of dust at the camp site to gather up all micro trash.  We also learned how to pick up human waste with a zip lock bag as well the toilet paper to pack the human waste out, we can wrap the human waste zip locks with duct tape to hide what is in there so you do not have to look at it.  I am not making this up.    

[cyphertext]

7 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

It is anecdotally mentioned in that document describing the general policy change and the decision-making behind it. That document does not define any detail of "Family Scouting", at any level. 

"Anecdotally mentioned"?  It is the very first question and answer in the FAQ of "Family Scouting".  BSA has made the push to add girls to the program under the umbrella of "Family Scouting"...  It doesn't mean that the family will necessarily tag along on campouts, but that there is now a program open to everyone in the family within BSA.

[Tampa Turtle]

8 minutes ago, cyphertext said:

If the boys who are current members do not support that change but it is pushed upon them anyway, yes, it does equal telling them to get lost.  

Have you spoken with any boys on this matter?  Every boy I have spoken to has asked "Why don't they just fix Girl Scouts?".  The boys I have spoken with do not support this change at all. 

To their credit ALL the adult scouters in our Troop keep their reservations to themselves. We tell the boys it is what it is. But their hearts are not in it. Though over half plan to walk they are planning to do it quietly. The ones who are complaining-and doing it loudly are the current Mom's. They are VERY unhappy and about 1/4 of them are GS leaders or former GS. They are talking about pulling their boys out for various reasons.

We did not have this much fall out from the gay decisions, I think because we could just choose to ignore it. We lost a boy or two on that one but our Troop was 50-70 then. Now we are 30+ and 10 boys are in danger of leaving. 

[gblotter]

6 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

So like I said, it's taboo to go back to what worked, we must maintain all change regardless.

The disastrous changes the 1970s were reversed. More recently, the 2nd Class/1st Class camping requirements were reversed. I maintain a sliver of hope that common sense may yet prevail and that Boy Scouting can continue to be a program for boys. Extremely unlikely, though.

[Gwaihir]

3 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

Changing back to all boy means actually kicking out girls already in Cub Scouts. It would be PR suicide. Never going to happen.

It doesn't matter what legal protections they might have to do so. The public backlash would kill the organization. 

Again, the exercise at play here was that this decision already killed the organization (membership drop offs to level of unsustainablility) 

 

Do you then kick the girls out or just fold up shop and we all go play e-sports? 

[EmberMike]

1 minute ago, cyphertext said:

"Anecdotally mentioned"?  It is the very first question and answer in the FAQ of "Family Scouting".  BSA has made the push to add girls to the program under the umbrella of "Family Scouting"...  It doesn't mean that the family will necessarily tag along on campouts, but that there is now a program open to everyone in the family within BSA.

That's exactly what Family Scouting is! Tagging along on campouts and meetings! Family Scouting is not just about general inclusivity, it's a specific program type, and it is not at the troop level. 

Just because an older girl program is mentioned in an introductory document on Family Scouting, a document that as previously mentioned has no detail on Family Scouting at either the Cub or Troop level, that does not mean that Family Scouting will apply to all ages of the program. 

[gblotter]

18 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

Changing back to all boy means actually kicking out girls already in Cub Scouts. It would be PR suicide. Never going to happen.

All they have to say is that the girl program is being phased out for new registrations because the impact on overall membership has been disappointing. Existing girls can finish their journey. No suicide involved. But I agree that it is extremely unlikely.

 

18 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

It doesn't matter what legal protections they might have to do so. The public backlash would kill the organization.

But no worry that the backlash from the departure of existing Scouts and Scouters may kill the organization?

 

18 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

In the highly unlikely scenario in which they did actually kick the girls out, I'd hang up my uniform permanently. 

I wouldn’t tell someone directly to leave. That’s a decision each person has to make.

Edited February 13, 2018 by gblotter

[Tampa Turtle]

43 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It's possible but unlikely.  The girls might not show up.  That's going to be the most interesting thing to watch.

I think some will. We have been getting inquiries. They may go elsewhere. But there will be some.

@gblotter to make up for centuries of the past sins of male domination your 'collateral damage' to this generation of boys is not of consequence. It will only matter IF the drop in boys as a result of girls causes a sudden, large, and consistent drop in overall BSA membership that National cannot ignore. Anything short of that, including the loss of experienced scouters who walk away will be swept under the rug. Victory will be declared, further corporate donors will be secured, 

[gblotter]

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

@gblotter to make up for centuries of the past sins of male domination your 'collateral damage' to this generation of boys is not of consequence. It will only matter IF the drop in boys as a result of girls causes a sudden, large, and consistent drop in overall BSA membership that National cannot ignore. Anything short of that, including the loss of experienced scouters who walk away will be swept under the rug. Victory will be declared, further corporate donors will be secured, 

You speak the truth.

[EmberMike]

...

Edited February 13, 2018 by EmberMike

[cyphertext]

2 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

That's exactly what Family Scouting is! Tagging along on campouts and meetings! Family Scouting is not just about general inclusivity, it's a specific program type, and it is not at the troop level. 

Just because an older girl program is mentioned in an introductory document on Family Scouting, a document that as previously mentioned has no detail on Family Scouting at either the Cub or Troop level, that does not mean that Family Scouting will apply to all ages of the program. 

Dude... 

Go look at the Family Scouting page  https://www.scouting.org/familyscouting/

Family Scouting is basically the catch all phrase that BSA has put on their programs that are open to all members of the family now.  Even in the document that you are pointing to, it says "Family Cub Scouts Boy Dens & Girl Dens".  Now look to the left of that box and the says "Boys Cub Scouts", and to the right of the Family Box  there is a box that says "Girls Cub Scouts".  These are the Packs that will not be coed...  Do you think these packs will not include families?  Are only coed units "Family Scouting"?

The Family Scouting is all about inclusion.  Look at the infographic.  What does it say?  Look at the executive message..  it says "Our recent historic decision to serve families by inviting girls to Cub Scouts and delivering a program that will enable them to earn the rank of Eagle Scout..."

[Gwaihir]

9 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I think some will. We have been getting inquiries. They may go elsewhere. But there will be some.

and that was an initial concern... when girls show up, but the numbers are small... National will change the program to "fix" that problem, and now we're no longer talking about "girls doing the same program the boys have done" as was pitched.  There will be changes to the program to meet girls needs, something we were told repeatedly simply doesn't exist, that girls and boys have the same interests and are basically the same person, with the same needs.  

(this is of course my speculation based on my observations)

Edited February 13, 2018 by Gwaihir