Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

[WisconsinMomma]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Another factor that women have is the natural "mother instinct" They want to nurture and protect they children. Many cannot let go. We see it today with 26 year olds being considered children under some federal laws.  I do not know when the Guide to Safe Scouting first came out, But I can tell you many things I use to do as a Scout are not allowed anymore, and it has been since women were allowed to be SMs and ASMs, i.e. pioneering projects over 6 feet, smudge pots, etc.

I am certain that it's not only women who are helicopter parents,  there are male helicopters too, and you all probably know at least a few.  I certainly know a few. 

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

While I agree that inexperienced Scout leaders are a potentially large problem, there is not a lot of difference between an inexperienced male and female Scouter.  In fact, we could argue whether an inexperienced male or female Scouter would pay closer attention to the training. 

 

I agree. I believe I was clear, but the point of the text was showing how much the program can change as a result of a membership policy change. 

Barry

[Col. Flagg]

38 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

While I agree that inexperienced Scout leaders are a potentially large problem, there is not a lot of difference between an inexperienced male and female Scouter. 

The only difference I see is that men have experience in being boys and women don't. That can be both a positive thing and a negative thing, but there is a difference. It is through training that we can help both experienced and inexperienced adults of both sexes deliver the program. Even training is no guarantee of good leadership. 

We have all seen lousy "experienced" leaders and great "inexperienced" leaders. There is certainly a spectrum. I will argue that in my experience the vast majority of helicopter parents are female. Maybe that's just in my local area, but I'd wager it is close to 70% easily. That's not saying that 70% of women are that way, just that of those folks deemed helicopter-ish 70% of them tend to be female.

[gblotter]

1 hour ago, gblotter said:

BSA has given up trying to attract new types of male Boy Scouts. They view girls as the future of Scouting and are modifying the program to accommodate that future vision.

In support of my assertion, it appears that BSA has already created a new Ballet merit badge.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222834942657

<a little humor is merited in this serious discussion - no?>

Edited February 13, 2018 by gblotter

[Jameson76]

4 minutes ago, gblotter said:

In support of my assertion, it appears that BSA has already created a new Ballet merit badge.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222834942657

<a little humor is merited in this serious discussion - no?>

Been going downhill since they discontinued Blacksmithing, Stalking, and Taxidermy merit badges.  Those were the ones that toughened them up.

[cocomax]

35 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

While I agree that inexperienced Scout leaders are a potentially large problem, there is not a lot of difference between an inexperienced male and female Scouter.  In fact, we could argue whether an inexperienced male or female Scouter would pay closer attention to the training. 

 

As a very experienced scout/scouter that had to take training last year, I can tell you I paid very close attention to the training.  The training was a joke, we were being trained about camping by someone who has never camped (other than at wood badge),  who made it very clear that if we go camping or hiking we need special soft soled shoes so that we would not compact the ground and injure the worms, hike only in groups of 5 or less,  when making a camp fire remove the soil 6 inches deep and set it aside, line the camp fire pit with a space blanket to protect the worms and microbes from heat, add sand that you pack with you, when you break camp pack out the ashes, dirty sand and the space blanket, place the original soil back in place and leave no trace.

We had knot tying instructors that could tie a square knot, but not a double half hitch, taunt line, timber hitch, clove hitch or square lashing. . .  

I paid VERY close attention to my training, it was a real eye opener.     

 

[Tampa Turtle]

9 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Been going downhill since they discontinued Blacksmithing, Stalking, and Taxidermy merit badges.  Those were the ones that toughened them up.

My son loved stalking tracking during the Centennial year. Almost every camp I have been to boasts a Blacksmithing station in the backwoods part of the camp and still display their sadly aging taxidermy animals. I wished they still had them as options.

[EmberMike]

1 hour ago, cyphertext said:

What are you calling "Family Scouting"? because the push to bring girls into the BSA is what BSA is calling "Family Scouting", and it is most certainly being applied at the troop level.

 

That's not what Family Scouting is. It's a specific program level, age 10 and under. At the troop level, "Family" is not a part of it. This is in the BSA Fact Sheet document on Family Scouting.

Edited February 13, 2018 by EmberMike

[EmberMike]

2 hours ago, gblotter said:

Where do you read this interpretation of Family Scouting as applying only to Cub Scouts (age 10 and under)? I'm not disputing you - I sincerely want to know. From what I have been able to tell, BSA has applied the term Family Scouting with a very broad brush to justify pretty much whatever change they want to make at whatever age level. By attaching the label "Family", BSA hopes to defuse resistance - because who can disagree with and go against the needs of the "Family", after all?

In the Fact Sheet document on Family Scouting. They list the program types as Boy Cub Scouts, Family Cub Scouts, Girls Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Girl Program. 

Family Cub Scouts is ages 6-10. There is no mention of a Family Scouting program for ages 11-17. 

[EmberMike]

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

I would slightly differ in that view.  BSA National and pretty much every interview CSE has had emphasized and at times over emphasized family.  He talks about families doing things together, that families want programs they can do together, and that scouting can be the program they can do together.  The surveys tell them family is key and they want to do things.  As a family.

One can infer that if the new families that come into Cubs with the family transition to Scouts, the expectation is the family will come along.  Those of us that are dinosaur troops, all male leaders on outings,  using patrol methods, scouts off by themselves, referring scouts to their SPL for questions, will be (I assume) be expected to welcome the families.  Even if we are all male and the Scouts potentially crossing over are male, this family focus will be a challenge.

 

I don't get that impression at all. The documentation I've looked at does not mention "Family" for the programs for ages 11-17. "Family Cub Scouts" is limited to age 10. 

[gblotter]

2 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

In the Fact Sheet document on Family Scouting. They list the program types as Boy Cub Scouts, Family Cub Scouts, Girls Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Girl Program. 

Family Cub Scouts is ages 6-10. There is no mention of a Family Scouting program for ages 11-17. 

The infographic on the same Family Scouting web page is not so clear in defining Family Scouting. The term applies to girls entering BSA at all levels.

https://3sn2bpzvo8j3b6sqx15pruqx-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Family-Scouting_Infographic.pdf

[WisconsinMomma]

26 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Been going downhill since they discontinued Blacksmithing, Stalking, and Taxidermy merit badges.  Those were the ones that toughened them up.

Those were all canceled in 1952.   

[Jameson76]

8 minutes ago, gblotter said:

The infographic on the same Family Scouting web page is not so clear in defining Family Scouting. The term applies to girls entering BSA at all levels.

Yeah...that big giant FAMILY is not really clear what it applies to.  We can infer and assume all we want but (as has been well noted) the message is a bit muddled.  The decision was made to admit girls to the program, rather than sell that, let's sell families, everybody loves that!!

 

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Jameson76

[Jameson76]

7 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Those were all canceled in 1952.   

[Gwaihir]

On 2/8/2018 at 6:36 PM, Sentinel947 said:

A time where schools were geographically tighter, and the BSA was allowed in schools... 

Fair enough. I'm pretty young by forum standards. When I was a Cub in the early 2000's most of the parents were involved with their kids in Cubs. Not every single meeting, but helping with requirements, chaperoning on outings, that sort of stuff. There isn't wrong with that, and we don't need every parent to be a registered volunteer. But we do need parents that are involved with their kid's scouting and support it, which it seems @Pselb and their family do well. 

There's a difference between the "Baby Sitters of America" meme and a family that is supportive of their kid and the program but aren't registered volunteers. 

My school was a private school, that was the school of the church that chartered the unit, so this has nothing to do with public schools and chartering.  It might be a conversation about how government forces have forced private schools to shutter, and instituting school choice vouchering might revive them... but that's out of scope for this topic.

I agree that having parents involved is has many positives and allows a lot more flexibility and sometimes parents do everything they can but can't commit to the level needed, but do their best. That said, uniformed adult leadership would bolster the numbers, it would bring a committed investment to the program that would more than likely result in more youth joining and it would filter up to district/council level and have more bodies available to do that volunteer work.  It would also filter up to the troop level as boys (and girls) cross over.  Making it a laissez faire type of atmosphere at the Cub level has, imo, played a role in declines (or at a minimum, stagnation).