The current moral panic is bad for males and females

[EmberMike]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. From Scouters no less. We're an organization that suppressed abuse claims for decades, and now we've got people here suggesting that the current openness and dialogue around very real sexual abuse cases is a bad thing? Just when I think this forum can't possibly shock me anymore...

[TAHAWK]

The "organization" in question is not "we."  It's BSA.   I am not BSA.  You are not BSA - probably.

[fred johnson]

1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

We're an organization that suppressed abuse claims for decades, ...

Your view is not the same as mine.  I won't argue BSA is perfect, but BSA had a tracking system in place for decades before the public acknowledged or knew about abuse.  BSA staff worked to document and track / record.  It wasn't perfect, but from what I've seen it was far ahead of what was being done in schools and communities at the same time.  If anything, it's BSA's own keeping documents that caused trouble.  It would have been better served if it shredded the documents after a 20 years.  

[skeptic]

Yep, and it is that very file that no other organization had anything like for protection that caused much of the legal issues when the courts decided to open them up to the legal scavengers so they could drag stuff into "the light".  It mattered not that it was a different time and most of the cases had been put away at the request of families who did not want to put their kids in the public theater of the time.  Yes, there were some that today would have immediately been prosecuted, but it was not up to the BSA to make that decision, and most of the cases in the files had gone to authorities who chose, for whatever reason to bury them.  As I have reminded the forum previously, have we so easily forgotten the MacMartin cases and the related paranoia that ruined so many lives twenty years or so ago?  Hopefully YP will do what it is intended to do in most cases; but reality is that there are always mistakes and things that go out of bounds.

[Gwaihir]

On 2/4/2018 at 8:12 AM, RememberSchiff said:

There is a lot of real anger and hysteria in America. I think trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,... scouts and Scouters are part of the solution.

My $0.02

 

In the age of the viral internet and the court of public opinion reaching a verdict quicker than an eye blink... even if you live up to those ideals... it doesn't matter much. 

[TAHAWK]

So let's all give up.  

[Pselb]

It's always more effective to deal with such issues in the court of public opinion.  It destroys reputations without ever getting to court even if the statutes of limitation have long expired.  We are supposed to be a country run by laws, but Salem Witch Hunts still exist along with kangaroo courts to appease the masses.  If that bothers you, just see how the process works.  The damage is done whether the courts find no evidence whatsoever.  This is how we do business today.  It's great fodder for the social media and the press have a hay day with it.  Trial by fire and trial by combat, now we have trial by social media.  Technology may be advancing at a rapid pace, but human nature and it's thirst for entertainment remains pretty much the same.

[walk in the woods]

6 hours ago, Pselb said:

It's always more effective to deal with such issues in the court of public opinion.  It destroys reputations without ever getting to court even if the statutes of limitation have long expired.  We are supposed to be a country run by laws, but Salem Witch Hunts still exist along with kangaroo courts to appease the masses.  If that bothers you, just see how the process works.  The damage is done whether the courts find no evidence whatsoever.  This is how we do business today.  It's great fodder for the social media and the press have a hay day with it.  Trial by fire and trial by combat, now we have trial by social media.  Technology may be advancing at a rapid pace, but human nature and it's thirst for entertainment remains pretty much the same.

This comment reminds me of my institution's Title IX training.  About midway through this year's installment there was information given that the "oppressive nature" of evidence gathering in a court of actual law can be avoided through the Title IX process.  Where a bureaucrat is investigator, jury and judge.  Oh, and the accuser can remain anonymous, need not be the victim, no right to cross examination, no right to discovery, etc.  The MeToo movement is the logical successor to the dear colleague letter and is in danger of hurting itself in the same way.  

Yeah, I generally avoid closed-door one-on-one meetings with female colleagues, I certainly avoid getting on a elevator with female students where I might end up alone.  I don't go to office mixers to the extent they still exist. 

Earlier in the thread someone posted that only 2% of cases were false accusations.  That failure rate would be the equivalent of 1700 air liners falling out of the sky every day or your car being in the shop a full week every year.  No thanks.  The impact to career and livelihood is simply too great to take a 2% chance.

[cocomax]

14 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Earlier in the thread someone posted that only 2% of cases were false accusations.  That failure rate would be the equivalent of 1700 air liners falling out of the sky every day or your car being in the shop a full week every year.  No thanks.  The impact to career and livelihood is simply too great to take a 2% chance.

If you are accused of doing something bad 10 years ago, 20 years ago or even 30 years ago how in the world do you prove the the accusations are false.  We have no way of knowing how many accused men who are believed to be guilty are innocent but will never be able to prove it. 

David Copperfield,  is once again facing new accusations.

 

(From USA TODAY)

A representative for Copperfield had no comment, but earlier Wednesday the 61-year-old illusionist posted a long statement to Twitter, calling the Me Too movement "crucial and long overdue. We all want people who feel they’ve been victims of sexual misconduct to be empowered, and as a rule we should listen, so more will feel comfortable coming forward.  It’s important."

He followed with a "but."

"But imagine what it’s like, believing in the movement, and having also been falsely accused publicly in the past. To have your life and your family’s life turned upside down," he wrote, detailing the last time he was falsely accused, which ended up with the woman being arrested and charged in a separate incident that was strikingly similarto what she said happened to her with Copperfield.  

Seemingly referencing new allegations about to surface in The Wrap, Copperfield made a plea with the public not to rush to judgment, saying, "while I weather another storm, I want the movement to continue to flourish."

  

 

 

[gblotter]

On 2/4/2018 at 7:29 AM, EmberMike said:

How many innocent men have been caught up in this? Anyone know? I have yet to hear of one.

Ask the Duke lacrosse team.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/duke-lacrosse-rape-espn-30-for-30_us_56e07e33e4b065e2e3d486f7

[Pselb]

It is illegal to harm other people you don't happen to get along with, but with just a few words of gossip to a naive ear it can utterly destroy marriages, families and a person's ability to earn a living.

With society every day buying into the "right" of not being offended, this weapon of words is an extremely lethal weapon  No one out there is safe because you'll never see it coming.

 

[Gwaihir]

2 hours ago, gblotter said:

Ask the Duke lacrosse team.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/duke-lacrosse-rape-espn-30-for-30_us_56e07e33e4b065e2e3d486f7

https://www.watchdog.org/issues/education/texas-student-commits-suicide-after-title-ix-kangaroo-court/article_c16a55b7-0e53-5303-b39f-f5b4e4b834ae.html

[TAHAWK]

An illustration of "momentum," which could be called "me too."

"The McMartin Preschool case was the first daycare abuse case to receive major media attention in the United States.^[21] The case centered upon the McMartin Preschool in Manhattan Beach, California, where seven teachers were accused of kidnapping children, flying them in a plane to another location, and forcing them to engage in group sex as well as forcing them to watch animals be tortured and killed.^[21] The case also involved accusations that children had been forced to participate in bizarre religious rituals, and been used to make child pornography.^[22] The case began with a single accusation, made by the mother - who was later found to be a paranoid schizophrenic^[3] - of one of the students, but grew rapidly when investigators informed parents of the accusation and began interviewing other students.^[22] The case made headlines nationwide in 1984, and seven teachers were arrested and charged that year.^[22] When a new district attorney took over the case in 1986, however, his office re-examined the evidence and dropped charges against all but two of the original defendants. Their trials became one of the longest and most expensive criminal trials in the history of the United States,^[22][1] but in 1990 all of these charges were also dropped.^[21] Both jurors at the trial and academic researchers later criticized the interviewing techniques that investigators had used in their investigations of the school, alleging that interviewers had "coaxed" children into making unfounded accusations, repeatedly asking children the same questions and offering various incentives until the children reported having been abused.^[21] Most scholars now agree that the accusations these interviews elicited from children were false.^[23][24] Sociologist Mary de Young and historian Philip Jenkins have both cited the McMartin case as the prototype for a wave of similar accusations and investigations between 1983 and 1995, which constituted a moral panic."

 

More ghastly detals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

[HelpfulTracks]

There is the dichotomy of the situation. ]

You say McMartin Preschool to people of my generation and all we remember are the accusations and think of them as evil people. The false accusations, for all practical purposes, stuck.

Then you have Larry Nassar's of the world, where the victims were not believed initially.

Accusations need to be listened to and investigated. But accusation do not equal guilty. Unfortunately, there are those, far too many, that believe what they want to believe regardless of any evidence.  Some ignore accusations because they think it is impossible, others will always believe even if accusations are proven false.

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by HelpfulTracks
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[Tampa Turtle]

Get all the angst and everything but BSA is not gonna change their policy and we Scouters just gotta roll with it or not play the game. When Girls in scouting starts affecting our individual units then there is another decision point for some. I do think the law of unintended consequences will arise in the Cub Scout packs first.

On the other hand I get the concept of the 'moral panic'; I was almost run out of my church for the comment that "In a broad generality Men and Women experience the world differently". Somehow that made me a troglodyte, transgender-hating (since I brought up only 2 genders), homo-phobic (not sure how that staretd) etc, etc. Glad I didn't  bring up I was a scout leader.