Pack YP equal or double standard

[Jameson76]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Why is it wrong? 

BSA National is making a distinction and judgement on Male and Female leaders.  They are clearly stating it is NOT accepted that 2 men can lead a girls den.  They are clearly stating that it is accepted that 2 women can lead a boys den.

That is a double standard. 

Scenario 1 - You are a male and have a den and your daughter is in the den, you have a male friend, the ADL, and he has and a daughter in the den.  According to BSA you and your friend cannot be the only leaders on an outing, you MUST have a female

Scenario 2 - You are a female and have a den and your son is in the den, you have a female friend, the ADL, and she has and a son in the den.  According to BSA you and your friend can be the only leaders on an outing.

There is no logical reason for this distinction.  Unless you feel that girls cannot be trusted with only male leaders.  Right out of the gate BSA National is putting into practice different standards based on gender.

[David CO]

I agree that there is a double standard. There always has been. It's nothing new.

The double standard exists in medicine as well. I have a cousin who is a doctor. He makes sure that there is a female nurse in the examining room whenever he is treating female patients.

[qwazse]

17 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

...

There is no logical reason for this distinction.  Unless you feel that girls cannot be trusted with only male leaders.  Right out of the gate BSA National is putting into practice different standards based on gender.

I'm betting it's not what I or anyone else feels, but what skilled litigators have got from negligence cases when plaintiffs were all-male caretakers vs all-female caretakers of the opposite sex.

[oldbuzzard]

The video is private/password protected for me.... 

Did it explicitly say 2 adults for boy dens vs 2 adults(at least one female) for girls dens on outings. Or, are we just assuming the old rules "still" apply to boy dens.

The simplest and in my opinion most likely explanation is that both genders of dens and the rest of scouting is moving to venturing rules with at least one leader of the same gender must be present for all attendees and National just hasn't gotten around to telling us yet or updating g2ss.

 

[cocomax]

7 minutes ago, oldbuzzard said:

The video is private/password protected for me.... 

Did it explicitly say 2 adults for boy dens vs 2 adults(at least one female) for girls dens on outings. Or, are we just assuming the old rules "still" apply to boy dens.

The simplest and in my opinion most likely explanation is that both genders of dens and the rest of scouting is moving to venturing rules with at least one leader of the same gender must be present for all attendees and National just hasn't gotten around to telling us yet or updating g2ss.

 

The password is:   F@mily4UnitLeaders

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

There is no logical reason for this distinction.  Unless you feel that girls cannot be trusted with only male leaders.  

Exactly right. You hit the nail on the head. I don't trust the girls. That's why I want to have a woman leader present if a group includes girls.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

I'm betting it's not what I or anyone else feels, but what skilled litigators have got from negligence cases when plaintiffs were all-male caretakers vs all-female caretakers of the opposite sex.

I think it would be better to have a female leader as a witness in my defense, should it ever come to that. A male leader is less likely to be believed.

A lot of people feel that girls and women should always be believed when they make an accusation against a man. The only good defense for a man is to have a woman leader testifying on his side.

[Eagle94-A1]

For those who have not seen the new Youth Protection slide in the presentations, it's below.

8 hours ago, David CO said:

Exactly right. You hit the nail on the head. I don't trust the girls. That's why I want to have a woman leader present if a group includes girls.

I agree. You need a female with you with a group of girls. There have been cases where the male has been prosecuted and exonerated, but the males have lost. Duke Lacrosse Team is but one example.

BUT I also know that with Scouting, National will take the word of a Scout, even if known as a liar to keep out of trouble, over a respected female Scouter. And they won't reinstate them either after an investigation proves the accusation false, and the "Scout" is a peeping Tom.

[Back Pack]

13 hours ago, David CO said:

Why is it wrong? 

It establishes a double standard. It says we trust trained women to be around boys but we don’t trust trained men to be around girls. That’s wrong. Either you treat everyone equally or you don’t integrate the program. With all the noise about equality and equal chances to put in a stupid policy like this just shows they’re not serious about equality. It’s just a buzz word to get their way. 

[Pselb]

A scout is trustworthy.  I may be reading this wrong, but the double standard explicitly states male leaders are not.  My daughters in Girl Scouts do not have male leaders for whatever reason.  I guess they don't want male leaders so they don't accept them.  I have been hassled to be a leader in the Boy Scout program, but not for the Girl Scouts, YMCA, church, sports teams or any other youth organization.  What with the Boy Scouts?  My wife is not bothered by the Girl Scouts or any other youth program either but gets hounded by the cub scouts all the time.

[cocomax]

It sounds to me that BSA and society in general hold women and girls in a place of higher esteem. Women are more trusted, less likely to lie, less likely to do anything wrong.  In a court of law the women are to be believed and the word of a man dismissed as a lie.

A pair of women can lead any cub pack or cub outing.  A pair of men may only lead an all boy cub pack.

This double standard of course did not start with the BSA, it came in from the outside,  but it is here now.

As a man I have this very small gnawing feeling that I am of less importance, less trusted, of a lower class then the women around me in the BSA.

 

 

[Back Pack]

18 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

What is the Venturing YPT rules for Boy, coed and Girl only units?   I would think the den leader rules should be consistent with those.

Venturing has equal protection. If only guys attend an event either male or female leaders can attend, but there must be at least one male leaders. Same if all girls attend, a minimum or one female leader must attend. If boys and girls attend then one leader of each sex must attend. Boys sleep in their campsite and girls in theirs. Adults sleep in the adult site. So why have a different standard for coed cubs?

[cocomax]

It is clear to me why BSA are putting this double standard into effect.

The venturing equal protection rules should be the new rules for cub scouts if they want to be fair,  but  they are not going to do that  .  . 

Because there are many current boy only cub packs that have female cub masters and leaders that would be breaking the rule and they would be shooting themselves in the the foot. . .  again. . .  by messing up existing cub packs.    

 

 

[Back Pack]

51 minutes ago, cocomax said:

It is clear to me why BSA are putting this double standard into effect.

The venturing equal protection rules should be the new rules for cub scouts if they want to be fair,  but  they are not going to do that  .  . 

Because there are many current boy only cub packs that have female cub masters and leaders that would be breaking the rule and they would be shooting themselves in the the foot. . .  again. . .  by messing up existing cub packs.    

 

 

But then just say two deep leadership be it two men or two women or any combination. Putting in a double standard says we don’t trust men. Talk about sexist. 

[Pselb]

In the past 3 years since my son joined cub scouts, I have become increasingly concerned about this whole moral/ethical issue.  It would seem scouts are going co-ed, which is no big deal, but the morality of sexism standards of the leaders and the open sexism of the children draws my attention to just exactly what it is the scouts are ethically adhering to?    We have male teachers coaching girl sports in public schools and there doesn't seem to be much fear mongering going on there.  Male clergy might only have females in their church youth group.  Same for other youth organizations.  All these organizations do their due diligence with background checks and field issues as they come up.  Yes, there's pedophiles in all youth programs that slip through the cracks.  Yet no amount of policy making has yet to be effective in curtailing the problem.  Making any sort of sexist policies which the scouts seem to be doing here only draws attention to the issue.  It would only be logical that in light of societal phobias, only female leadership be allowed to run the program.  And yet still, with the media filled with female sexual abuse of youth, maybe that won't last long.  And what's going to happen when everyone wakes up and realizes that both mom and dad are abusing their children.  One can't legislate morality.