Restricting ASM's

[Eamonn]

Twocubdad

I suppose it all comes down to picking your battles. In my opinion being the CO is the CO you can ask to have the rule changed. However if they dig their heels in there is no way of winning.

Needless to say if I was this Lady I don't think that I would want any part of this CO going on the details that we have been given here.

Eamonn

[dsteele]

Although I fully understand that Scoutmaster Ron doesn't want to lose an able assistant over a rule by the CO (which, I'm afraid they are able to have) my advice for the assistant scoutmaster is to beat feet outta there and start a new troop somewhere else. If some of the boys and adults from the old troop follow her, so be it. I wouldn't recommend she try to drag them with her. Just make it clear where she's going and go there.

 

I do think that the district leaders need to be aware of the COs rule. It may point them to symptoms of other problems within the troop. There's not much they can do about it, but they should know what's going on.

 

Unc.

[Scoutmaster Ron]

In response to your questions:

 

Nielup..

I am not personally involved with the sponser and probably could speak to them directly.

 

Twocubdad..were having an additional meeting on the 13th with everyone involved (not quite sure if the C.O. is invited) I also believe they rubber stamped this rule.

 

When the CC advised the potential ASM (3 other witness) there is a difference of opionion what was said. The CC & COR state that shw was offered an ASM position but had the restrictons.

 

The applying ASM and possibly another future ASM (she's a Cubmaster currently) state and quoting the CC "It just doesnt work out for female ASM's" that females serve on the committee and the Dads go camping" They also said they she could not be ASM.

 

 

[LPC_Thumper]

I can't let this one slide. I think you know that from time to time I post things on this site. As a leader in the LDS church let me say this. LDS units that actually follow the documentation they receive from church headquarters will not have any females camping with them. If their leaders attend Woodbadge, they are advised to request an exclusively same sexed patrol. (Since women can be Cub Leaders and since Cub Leaders can/should go to Woodbadge this direction has been given)

 

Now on the topic of female ASMs. I'm the CC for a troop sponsored by the Knights of Columbus (long story, let's just say it's not an LDS troop), Their SM asked that we not have moms/ladies on campouts. Boys had a hard time with each of the trips we took as we started. Moms serve with me on the committee. Moms come and visit but don't spend the night. It's just what works for us.

 

I'm only sharing to point out that in some cases this creates problems. In some it does not. If feelings were hurt, I'm of the opinion it had more to do with the delivery rather than the message.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Their SM asked that we not have moms/ladies on campouts."

 

What an enlightened attitude. We have moms, trained and registered moms, who go camping but spend most of their time acting like moms. Scurry, scurry, "do this . . . " "wash that . . ."

 

One mom alwasys seems to have an excuse about why her Life Scout son is sleeping in her tent. "It was too dark for him to set up his tent. . ." "It was raining . . ." "There are bears in the next county . . ."

 

 

Even worse is when the mom of one of the new Scouts is along, the Scout is constantly looking for mom. "I bumped my head . . ." "I cut my finger . . ." "I don't like what's for dinner . . ."

[Twocubdad]

Thumper: The particular rules that govern LDS units flow from the teachings of the LDS church, right? BSA has allowed them (and really all COs) the perogative to apply those teachings to their Scout units. But personally I neither agree with nor particulary understand those rules. That goes a long way toward explaining why I not a member of the LDS church or one of their units.

 

As to the problems caused by moms camping with your unit, were the problems caused by the mere fact of their gender or did the problems relate to their behavior, lack of training, and/or meddling in the program? Could those problems have been solved other than through an outright ban on all females? How do you handle the problem of meddlesome, doting fathers?

 

In SMRon's case, the mom/ASM was an experienced, Wood Badge-trained Scouter. There was no suggestion that she was causing a problem, only that the CC didn't trust that male and female leaders can behave themselves on a campout. Perhaps the solution there is to recruit leaders of higher moral character (I'd start with the committee chairman). If I can't trust you in the woods with my wife, I for dang sure don't trust you with my children.

[ASM59]

Touch, FOG!

I was waiting for someone to mention this.

Mothers usually take care of most of the discipline in the home and also help their children with homework and providing meals (motherly type things). These tendencies can carry over to an outing such as a campout for some mothers.

Our Troop has several Mothers who do will not register as ASM or go on campouts because they know that they will do exactly as you pointed out. These wise women know that they would disrupt a campout by being overly worried about relatively minor things. They would tend to jump in and do things for the boys that they need to learn to do for themselves.

This having been said, we have another woman (currently on the committee) that can be great on a campout. She can look the other way, bite her tongue, and let a campout go on as normal. She will participate and have fun interacting with the boys, always letting the ASMs deal with any discipline (especially as might relate to her son).

I've seen male ASM's that can be just as bad (or worse) as you describe the women from your unit, so this is not a rule without exception.

The conclusion; I dont think you can just lump all women in a general category, but I think that most need a break from their kids and the discipline that goes with the territory.

ASM59

 

[SR540Beaver]

We have one lady who hunts and likes the outdoors and goes on all the campouts. She was the Webelos Den Leader until our boys crossed over. Now she is a Troop Committee Member and Wood Badge trained. She has always spoiled her son rotten. And I do mean rotten. He is ADD and a real discipline problem. Since we have crossed over, it has been hard for her to break the habit of doing things for him. He tends to wander over to the adult campsite looking for Mom. The SM and ASM's ask him what he needs. Nothing. We then tell him to go find his patrol. He comes over to see what we are eating because half his patrol won't roll out of bed and cook breakfast. Mom tries to feed him. The SM tells him/her no, go wake up your patrol and cook. The SM is working on her to break her habit. When he sent her son away at breakfast, he looked at her and said, "tough love Mom, tough love". She agreed. I think she is eventually planning on not coming on some trips so her son will be forced to do things himself. She needs to do it sooner than later. I think we can break her of it before we can break her son. I have a feeling that if she doesn't go, he won't either. I have no problem with her being there. I do have a problem with her babying her son. But then, I'd have the same problem with a man doing it too. We do have another mother who camps with us occasionally and every time her son comes to her, she sends him back to his patrol without fail.

 

Now my personal opinion which is politically incorrect is that I'd prefer women not to come camping. Their presence changes the whole tenor of the camp out. Men want to associate with men around the campfire and they tend to be a little more tight lipped when a woman is sitting around it with them. Also, I'm a big guy and it is really difficult for me to get dressed in a backpacking tent. From the outside, I'm sure it looks like a bull in a China shop. It sure would be nice to only have to struggle into my pants and then step outside to get my shirt on and tuck it in without women standing around.

[dsteele]

Growing up in Scouting, we never had women on our troop campouts. I don't think it occurred to anyone to have them come or not come, one way or another. There were mothers involved in the troop committee, but none as Assistant Scoutmasters. Never gave it much thought.

 

flash forward to the early nineties when I was a Scoutmaster, and picked up 18 Webelos. One of the Mom's came aboard and came to every campout with her son and husband. She was wonderful to have around. There were a couple of other moms who attended campouts as well.

 

They were no problem. They were the Moms who understood. The ones that didn't come on the campouts were my problem -- "Why did you let him go the whole weekend without brushing his teeth!?!" She didn't like my answer of the fact that they are HIS teeth, and not mine. She's the one who should have taught him to brush . . . and I wasn't about to chase him to the water-stall to do it. She wasn't the only problem mom, but she was, like the others, one who was never on the campout. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

 

Unc.

 

[ASM1]

Talk to your COR. The CC needs to have the same training as this ASM has. No, exceptions, Bye Bye CC!

 

 

ASM1

[ASM1]

This ASM has the Horsepower to fix this situation. The COR will have to releive the CC. Or, this ASM, with her taining can go to District or Council for a solution. But the solution will be Bye Bye CC.

 

ASM1

[NeilLup]

Not to be picky, ASM1, but under current guidelines, the CC does NOT need to have the same training as the ASM to be considered fully trained.

 

For the ASM, the training is

 

Fast Start

New Leader Essentials

Position Specific Training for SM/ASM

Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills

 

For the CC, it is

 

Fast Start

New Leader Essentials

Troop Committee Challenge (which is Position Specific Training for Committee)

 

It is always good for the CC to have more training, but not required.

[Fat Old Guy]

ASM1 said, "Talk to your COR. The CC needs to have the same training as this ASM has. No, exceptions, Bye Bye CC!"

 

Although it is true that the CO can set standards for required training, neither the ASM nor the CC need to attend any training to register and do their job.

 

ASA1 said, "This ASM has the Horsepower to fix this situation. The COR will have to releive the CC. Or, this ASM, with her taining can go to District or Council for a solution. But the solution will be Bye Bye CC."

 

You don't seem to have been paying attention. If the COR doesn't do anything, the District and Council are powerless. Every CO is free to set whatever rules they want as long as those rules don't violate BSA policy. A CO may say, "no wimmen at all" or "wimmen can only be on the committee" or "only left handed wimmen may go camping." All BSA says is that women may register as leaders, that's it.

 

[Shell in WA- USA]

No offense, but this doesn't sound like a troop I'd want my boys belonging too. If they treat fellow adults like that, then what is it teaching the boys? To disrespect their female adults? To teach them bigotry? I think not! I don't want that for my sons! They must not like the venturing program for scouts eitehr, that's co-ed.

 

And yes, I have run into some PARENTS (not just women) who act like parents instead of leaders for the troop. But not ALL do it. I'm a female leader, and I'M the one who instigated the thought of "your not a parent but a BS Leader" on the outing within our troop. Now the troop includes that in all their New Parent Trainings. The adults are not along to do everything for the boys. They are there to keep it safe and to give the advise as needed. But it's the boys who are running the show. When my boys were younger, and they were having troubles, I'd have another leader go to them. And visa versa.

 

And yes, I had to struggle in the troop to "prove myself" too. I fought against always being put with "organizing the parties." But I din't get in their faces about it, I just conducted myself "up to code" and the boys liked my involvement, I had good advise for them. They learned how to do things themselves. But now the adult leaders understand where I'm coming from and they accept me for who I am and for what I can do for the troop and the boys. The SM and CC even come to me in many cases for advise because I am so knowledgable about the BS program.

 

But an adult leader should be judged ont he job they do not prejudged because their equipment or color is different.

[Fat Old Guy]

Why do women seem to think that it is horrible for people to want men as role models for boys but yet it is perfectly acceptable for GSUSA to proclaim that women are desired as leaders because girls need women as role models?