Restricting ASM's

[Scoutmaster Ron]

We recently just had an interesting situation happen in which the CC told a perspective new female ASM (she has two sons in the troop,W.B. trained and was a W.D.L. & Activitys Coord for the district) that she could not go on campouts with the troop unless she had a second female and or her husband attend. She stated that in the CC's old troop an inappropriate relationship had developed between two married people (can't tell you if it happened on a campout or Scouting was how they met)

It would also appear that the CC rep has already gone to the C.O. and advised them of this and the committee has already voted on this.

 

From what I have learned on this board they (the C.O.) can do this it just doesnt seem right. Now at least two other ASM's and 5 boys are talking about leaving this would be at least 1/4th of our Scouts. Personally I'm against it I think she should be able to be a leader with no restrictions. The S.M. was asked his opionion in which he stated "I have no problem with her attending campouts" What's your opionion on this? Is there any recourse? Should the District commisioner be involved? and or council?

[AggieScouter]

Doesn't seem right to me. Ask your Unit Commissioner first. A decent UC has a lot of knowledge.

[KoreaScouter]

Your CC's out of line. If the ASM is as experienced as she seems to be, she knows he's out line. Somebody had better rein him in or you stand a good chance of getting a lot of District/Council help you don't necessarily need in running your unit.

 

KS

[NeilLup]

I've heard of this kind of restriction before. Some units do hot have female ASMs. Others have (in my opinion) seriously misinterpreted the Guide to Safe Scouting by stating that they believe that having a female ASM on a campout makes it a coed activity meaning that if a female ASM is present, a male leader must be there too. (The alternative would be two adult female leaders running a Boy Scout campout.)

 

It would seem that the CC has a real problem with female leaders and this may be his way of getting back. He may also have a problem with this particular woman and this is his way of trying to drive her out. I know that some competent women who are effective Cub Scout leaders can be perceived as quite threatening to some men.

 

Involving the Unit Commissioner is a good idea. If it would not be considered offensive to them, another alternative might be for the female ASM to go together with her husband to a Committee meeting and for him to take the tack "I am extremely offended. You are insulting my wife and looking only at her gender. If you believe that she is qualified to be an ASM, then she should do everything that an ASM does. If she can't, then I'm sure there are plenty of units who would be happy to have her. But for you to suggest that she is so libertine and so promiscuous that I need to be on a campout with her insults her and insults me."

 

There are some people who have extremely non-trusting standards concerning relations between the genders. Others do not. As I write this, my wife is in the Grand Canyon with her (male) hiking buddy. Sometimes, they share a tent when weather and conditions demand. Good thing too as she once saved his life when he went into insulin shock and would not have known had they not been in the same tent. This is, of course, not a Scouting trip.

 

The rules for mixed gender adult leadership on campouts is clear according to the Guide to Safe Scouting. However, those are not enough for some people and some religions.

 

I might be inclined to bring matters to a head as I suspect there is something beneath the surface of the CC's actions.

[Fat Old Guy]

"The S.M. was asked his opionion in which he stated 'I have no problem with her attending campouts'"

 

Maybe the SM and the ASM are playing patty-fingers . . . . hmmmmm?

 

 

[Bob White]

The CC and CO have done nothing wrong. They have not violated any rule of scouting. This is a decision they have the authority to make and they made it. It is their troop to administrate.

[FScouter]

Maybe she should offer to have her husband sign a permission slip. And she could sign a written promise that she won't do any hanky-panky. And will immediately scream at the top of her lungs if any of the male leaders on the campout make a move on her.

[Hunt]

The initial poster notes that the CC and CO can do this "but it just doesn't seem right." While obviously it is their troop to administer as they see fit, that does not make their actions immune from question or criticism. The questions posed here are really (1) is this a reasonable restriction? and (2) if it's not, how can you persuade them to change their position? In my view, it's not a reasonable restriction, because it's punishing the current ASM for the actions of some other people, without any evidence that there is any risk of such a behavior by her. But in terms of changing their minds, a belligerent approach will probably not work, nor will going over their heads (since they're not violating any rules). Having the husband show up and explain that he trusts his wife completely might help (but saying he's insulted probably won't).

[SR540Beaver]

It is amazing at how childish some grown-ups can be. Last month on our campout we did a shakedown hike for an upcoming backpacking trip. We had a female ASM with us. We stopped on the trail for a break and she decided that nature was calling. She asked me to have the boys look the other way. I said, "gentleman, we have a lady on the hike and she has requested that you all look in that direction for a couple of minutes". They all stood there with a puzzled look on their face for a couple of seconds before I heard a collective "OH". They all turned in unison and stared off into the trees until she reappeared from behind some brush and gave the all clear. No problem for anyone concerned. Lord knows she saw the back of a lot of boys relieving themselvs over the weekend who didn't bother with the same level of descretion that she did.

[Scoutmaster Ron]

Well at last nights troop meeting it went down like this the committee upon receiving her application voted that she could be ASM but has tto have teither the second female or her husband attend outings due to they are afraid rumours would start.

The COR then went to the C.O. stated what they wanted their policy to be and he approved it.

Bob,

I appreciate your answer but really? It's just hard for me to believe this can be allowed. Their is nothing in the troop by-laws restricting it. There is nothing that I know in BSA policy that restricts it and if the troop can override BSA then would troops be allowed to override the gay issue?

 

Here is another question for the group...What if she was a single parent not ASM could they still bar her from going?

[Balding Eagle]

Well about the converse. If the male leaders want to attend a campout she will be attending they have to bring their wives. Why is the onus on her?

 

 

[nldscout]

While I think this is a really dumb policy. Many CO restrict female adult involvement. LDS CO do not allow females to camp even if the husband is along.

 

Scoutmaster Ron.

 

A CO/Troop can implemt more restrictive policies on attendance and membership, but the can't loosen the basic rules.

[NeilLup]

Hello SM Ron,

 

Thanks for the additional information. As much as one can tell from a distance, things become clearer.

 

It reminds me of what I had heard of Navy problems with putting women on submarines on long cruises. The principal source of complaints was from the wives of the Navy men, not from the sailors themselves.

 

So in this case, it sounds as if the CC is either getting heat or anticipates getting heat from his spouse and the same may be true for some of the other committe members. So it may not be that the woman isn't trusted, rather, in the eyes of his spouse, the CC may not be trusted totally.

 

Does your CC normally go on camping trips and do committee members normally go on camping trips? One interim solution might be that if the males going on a specific camping trip don't object, then there is no problem.

[acco40]

Guys (and Gals),

 

You forget what the BSA yells at the top of their lungs for all to hear, "We are a private organization and can put restrictions on who we want to associate with." No less an authority than BW can back me up on this.

 

A unit's CO can ban righthanded Lithuanians who eat fish from all troop meetings that fall on odd days during months that end in "y" if they wish. Is it reasonable? That is debatable. If you don't like them apples go form your own group!! And (I'm on a roll now), if you don't agree with the "Lithuanian rule" and still stay in Scouting you are one big hypocrite that has no moral backbone! Now where have I heard that before?

 

(Yes, the above was typed with my tongue firmly in cheek.)(This message has been edited by acco40)

[NWScouter]

I took this from the guide to safe scouting youth protection section:

All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.

By this even the LDS units would be required to allow any parent or leader attend any events, i.e. overnights etc. The LDS do have women on their campouts by the Church rules. But only peer pressure could keep a parent of scout in their unit from a non-LDS member's family from an outing. Though in their units there are no female SM or ASM, which is their right.

I have heard of units in general not allowing non-registered parents from attending outings but this rule would stop a troop from doing that.