Buzzfeed - CSE Surbaugh - Girls - Scouter.com

[gblotter]

6 minutes ago, JustAScoutMom said:

I'm going to predict the older girl program will be "Girl Guides" as a homage to the international girls.  If they just throw a label out there, people will calm down.

Paying homage to a historical label like Girl Guides will likely help traditionalist swallow the pill a bit easier, but our Texas brainiacs don’t have a great track record in this area.

[Treflienne]

10 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Paying homage to a historical label like Girl Guides will likely help traditionalist swallow the pill a bit easier, but our Texas brainiacs don’t have a great track record in this area.

Some of us history-minded GSUSA oldtimers who are thinking of switching to BSA might like "Girl Guides".  But I see two big problems with "Girls Guides" as a name for BSA4G:

GSUSA would hate it, because they are the WAGGGS member in the USA, and BSA is not.

And the girls themselves who don't know much scouting history, just like their older American sisters 100 years ago, will want to be called "scouts" and not something else.

[JustAScoutMom]

Just now, Treflienne said:

Some of us history-minded GSUSA oldtimers who are thinking of switching to BSA might like "Girl Guides".  But I see two big problems with "Girls Guides" as a name for BSA4G:

GSUSA would hate it, because they are the WAGGGS member in the USA, and BSA is not.

And the girls themselves who don't know much scouting history, just like their older American sisters 100 years ago, will want to be called "scouts" and not something else.

They are scouts though.....just like Venturers are scouts.  They are not "venturer scouts", but they are Venturers, which are scouts.  Just semantics to me.

[TAHAWK]

And one message of "semantics" is that words have power.  When he stopped calling leaders "Leaders" and started calling adults "Leaders," things got worse, not better.

[Eagle1993]

I would imagine that BSA would have filed a trademark by now if a new name is rolling out.  I’ve been watching the trademark listing and haven’t seen anything yet.  Girl Guides does appear to be available for anyone to claim.

[Eagle94-A1]

34 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

And one message of "semantics" is that words have power.  When he stopped calling leaders "Leaders" and started calling adults "Leaders," things got worse, not better.

AMEN!

[Tampa Turtle]

15 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

That would be time to punch out

Yes. There are other Troops and OA near by if  so choose. Or I could just take "Elder Statesman" status and just do a MB or two. On the other hand Mrs Turtle would like more vacation time and while she is not into camping we may be able to compromise and take some walking holidays where you hike and spend a civilized night under a roof.

[walk in the woods]

17 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

That's possible.  My Scout shirt from the early 70s has "Scout BSA" over the pocket, not "Boy Scouts of America" as it was before and after that (including now.)

I guess the analogy to Federal Express/FedEx would be BoSco.  (No, not the chocolate drink, do they still make that?)  And I didn't make that up.  Some may be familiar with Camp No-Be-Bo-Sco in New Jersey (where much of the original "Friday the 13th" was filmed.)  The name stands for North Bergen Boy Scouts.  So there is some precedent for Bo-Sco... not that I think there is any chance of that happening.

Future Farmers of America just turned into FFA.  

[walk in the woods]

20 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Over heard several scouter-committee moms who are also GSUSA leaders say that they are planning to bring their daughters over (and some friends) next year to our Troop. (The exact words used were "I do not care what a few people say we are going to STORM this Troop." (Her emphasis, not mine) Also "If they say we need two female scout leaders we can do it on paper none of us have to go camping or anything."  Two said they were going to start the beginning of next school year and not wait until 2019 because what is the point.

So you responded "You go girl!" and walked away laughing maniacally?  

[Tampa Turtle]

13 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

So you responded "You go girl!" and walked away laughing maniacally?  

I thought I was very well behaved as I silently repeated my mantra "I am a volunteer, I don't have to do this" 100x. One of these same kadies is the GSUSA Mom who said her son "better hurry up and get his Eagle before age 15 or all this time has been wasted". 

[FireStone]

On 2/28/2018 at 4:17 PM, Eagle1993 said:

If girls represent 5% and our membership continues to decline we will become REI Scouts of America (or whatever brand(s) help bail us out).

 

I kind of would love for us to have a stylish brand of casual apparelt like the i.Scout stuff over in the UK. Maybe REI can make that happen for us with the bail-out. 

[Jameson76]

On 2/28/2018 at 4:17 PM, Eagle1993 said:

If girls represent 5% and our membership continues to decline we will become REI Scouts of America (or whatever brand(s) help bail us out).

With the STEM (STEAM???) emphasis it may be some tech company. 

• Apple Scouts
• Amazon Scouts
• Oracle Scouts

 

[gblotter]

On 2/28/2018 at 1:22 PM, Tampa Turtle said:

If girls represent 5% and our membership continues to decline we will become REI Scouts of America (or whatever brand(s) help bail us out).

* Cabela's Scouts of America

* Bass Pro Shop Scouts of America

[CalicoPenn]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 7:04 PM, gblotter said:

It was a disastrously failed attempt to reinvent Scouting for the modern era. This could never happen again, say by reinventing Scouting to include girls? Nah.

From Wikipedia.

Outdoors skills de-emphasized

In September 1972 the Boy Scouts launched the "Improved Scouting Program," publishing a radically revised handbook with less emphasis on outdoor skills for the three lower ranks. Skill Awards for Hiking, Camping, and Cooking included outdoor skills requirements and were required for Second Class and First Class Scouts. Several outdoor merit badges were removed from the list of those required to become an Eagle Scout; those removed from the list included Camping, Cooking, Nature, Swimming, and Lifesaving. The Scoutcraft information and requirements were replaced by information on drug abuse, family finances, child care and community problems. The use of boy was de-emphasized: the eighth edition of the handbook was titled simply Scout Handbook and the new strategic logo used Scouting/USA. The concept of the personal growth agreement conferences was introduced as a requirement for each rank.

Other changes included new colored cloth badges for all ranks and positions and "skill awards", represented by a metal loop worn on the belt, that were awarded instantly at the time they were earned. They supplemented individual rank requirements which along with merit badges were also presented immediately, and recognized later at the court of honor. The merit badge program—previously only available to First Class and above—was opened to all ranks, and merit badges were required for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class. The number of required merit badges for Eagle Scout was increased to 24, and Camping merit badge was dropped from the required list. The entry age was changed to 11 or 10-½ if a boy had finished fifth grade.

Return to traditional Scouting

1970s-era Scouting/USA branding
The changes in the advancement requirements were a disastrous failure for Scouting and membership plummeted. The BSA lured William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt out of retirement in 1979 and he spent an entire year writing the 9th Edition of the Boy Scout Handbook. It was a return to the traditional Scouting program after the disastrous membership losses suffered by the 1970s program. From a peak of 6.5 million Scouts in 1972, membership declined to a low of 4.3 million in 1980. The 9th Edition has a great deal in common with prior editions of the handbooks that Hillcourt had helped write. The new edition reproduced entire paragraphs and pictures from the earlier editions.

In 1976 the National Boy Scouts discontinued the Improved Scouting Program and introduced "All Out for Scouting", a back-to-basics program developed by Hillcourt. The program was launched with "Brownsea Double-Two", a week-long course for the senior patrol leader who would then introduce the troop-level "Operation Flying Start" to their units. It emphasized teaching and practicing Scout skills, the purposes of Scouting, and the role of the patrol method within the troop program. Many councils ran both Brownsea and Troop Leader Development, but some councils held only one or the other. The number of Eagle required merit badges was reduced back to 21, and Camping was restored to the required list.

 

People sure like to dump on the 1970's era Scouting - they love to call it disastrous too, and like to blame it for so many of Scouting ills.  Then to prove the point, they quote Wikipedia which certainly is an unbiased and 100% accurate source of information  

Many of us who went through the 1970's program tend to remember things differently.  In fact, you can find threads on this very board that discusses Skill Awards and most of those commenting are pretty positive about them. Some people like to claim that there was a de-emphasis on the outdoor program but that wasn't the case at all.  The 1970's program as never about eliminating the outdoors emphasis for Troops that wanted to emphasize the outdoors, it was about broadening the appeal to include people for whom the outdoors might as well have been outer space.  If you had an outdoor emphasis in your Troop in 1970, you probably still had an outdoor emphasis in your Troop in 1975.  And the rank/awards/scouting program still supported it.  What it was also trying to support were units in big cities where access to the outdoors was very limited - the program was designed so that big city scouts could be successful too.  You should also note that rank requirements actually got tougher during the 1970's.  Sure, some Eagle-required Merit Badges were dropped, and some became optional in a choose one of two or one of three manner - but you had to earn 3 more Merit badges.  You had to earn Merit Badges for T/SC/FC - never had to do that before.  And that much-maligned "Personal Growth Agreement" conference?  We call it a Scoutmaster's Conference today - and it's watered down today too.  Part of the Personal Growth Agreement conference was coming up with goals to work on for the next rank.  Scoutmaster's held you to them too.  I think that should be brought back.

What I truly take exception to though is this notion that somehow the great and revered William "Green Bar Bill" Harcourt somehow reversed the "disastrous" membership declines by re-writing the Scout Handbook to emphasize a more "traditional" Scouting program.  The numbers just don't bear this out.  Folks who make this claim point to the increase in membership numbers after 1980.  What they don't point out, and giving the benefit of the doubt, it may be because they don't know the breakouts among the different programs within Scouting, is that the bulk of the membership increases in the first part of the 1980's was in the Exploring program and in the second part of the 1980's was in the Cub Scout program.

Green Bar Bill rewrote the Boy Scout Handbook.  He wasn't really involved much in Exploring and Cub Scouting.  So how well did the re-write of the Boy Scout Handbook, which is used by Boy Scouts in Troops, affect the membership numbers?  Not much at all.  In 1970, there were 1.916M Boy Scouts (just Boy Scouts - in Troops - not adult leaders, not Cub Scouts, not Explorers - just Boy Scouts).  In 1975, there were 1.503M Boy Scouts.  in 1980, there were 1.064M Boy Scouts.  Then came Green Bar Bill's famous Boy Scout saving handbook.  in 1981, Boy Scout numbers increased to 1.101M.  That's a gain of about 37K Scouts.  in 1982, up to 1.126M.  That's another 25K Scouts.  In 1983?  Uh oh - down to 1.116M Scouts - a loss of 10K Scouts.  It went down again in 1984.  In 1985, Boy Scout numbers had dropped down to 1.063M Scouts.  1990?  1.011M Scouts.  1995?  .981M Scouts.  Green Bar Bill's new Boy Scout Handbook, if that is what is to be credited for the numbers going up again, resulted in a net gain of about 62K Scouts - all of whom were lost, by 1985.    So much for the turn-around effect of Green Bar Bills revamping of the Boy Scout Handbook.

And about those Cub Scout numbers?  In 1980, there were 1.696M Cub Scouts.  In 1985, down to 1.499M Cub Scouts.  in 1990, Up to 1.821M Cub Scouts -isn't that great!  But 1991 - a real disaster struck  Cub Scout numbers plunged by 859K Cubs to .962M Cub Scouts.  In the "disastrous" 1970's, you can just about track the year-by-year birth rate decline of the 1960's (most Scouts in the 1970's were born in the 1960's).  But there is no birth rate decline to help explain the 1991 loss of membership.

[gblotter]

1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said:

Many of us who went through the 1970's program tend to remember things differently.

If you had a good experience with the "Improved Scouting Program", well then good for you.

I'm one of those people who lived it, too. I was part of the mad dash to finish off my Eagle in early 1974 under the old requirements. The new Scouting program was confusing and unappealing. I dropped out shortly after all that was introduced (along with more than 2 million other Scouts who voted with their feet). The Chief Scout Executive, Alden Barber, was not forced into early retirement because the program was a great success.