OA to end AoL ceremonies?

[Hawkwin]

As it pertains to crossover ceremonies, I found this (starting on page 81):

https://www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/Webelos_to_Scout.pdf

Seems like it would be more meaningful and impactful than the Native American skit that is now used.

[LeCastor]

The issue of culture and identity have come up several times in this thread.  It's a complicated topic, for sure.  However, I think we need to be careful when we try to compare German and Irish traditions with those of Native American nations.  There is no one NA culture, as there are many, many NA tribes and tribal nations.  As said earlier in this thread, some tribes/nations support OA and work closely with their respective Lodges.  In other cases, the opposite is true.  

I'll politely ask again for you to offer solutions to Packs who may need guidance on best practices when it comes to the next round of AoL ceremonies.  

[Eagle94-A1]

16 hours ago, Back Pack said:

 What many adult keep forgetting is that kids like this stuff. We dress up for Halloween because it’s fun. We liked OA for the mystique and the ceremonies. We were on ceremony teams because they were fun. Now all that goes away and we just meet to do service projects? You’ll have to create something pretty amazing and special to get me and my friends out. We can stay in town and do service projects. Why go two hours away to camp?

 

The first time I saw an OA ceremony team was at my AOL and Cross Over ceremonies. WOW THAT WAS AWESOME! It made me want to join the  OA and do cool things like that.

It is also a good way to promote the OA. One chapter I was in had a hard time and was in serious decline. We used AIA to revitalize it and make some serious impreovements. AIA team had a lot to do with it.

[Eagle94-A1]

32 minutes ago, LeCastor said:

.  There is no one NA culture, as there are many, many NA tribes and tribal nations.  As said earlier in this thread, some tribes/nations support OA and work closely with their respective Lodges.  In other cases, the opposite is true.  

I'll politely ask again for you to offer solutions to Packs who may need guidance on best practices when it comes to the next round of AoL ceremonies.  

 

I know first hand how lodges and local nationa help each other out. I was a part of that in one lodge directly, and in a second one indirectly. And this goes back a long wasy in OA history. Once upon a time it was illegal to practice elements of NA curlture, one way around this was the OA and using it a "teaching opportunity."

[mashmaster]

7 hours ago, Back Pack said:

Well all I can say is for all the discussion here on the patrol method and allowing boys to lead all I hear are adults making decisions about what impacts this boys program. How about letting the scouts make the decision and the adults live with it. Wouldn’t that be more in line with what you all say you want for boys in scouting? Or is that just talk. 

Well, yes and know.  Even though the boys make the decisions they do work hand in hand with adults for many of those decisions.  There are many decisions that I have seen well meaning boys make where it would have been dangerous.  Should that be allowed?  I also have seen decisions made that are very insensitive to other scouts and cultures that had to be nipped in the bud.  The boys didn't have a clue why it was insensitive but it needed to not be allowed.   Boy led, doesn't mean they aren't supervised. 

Sorry to break your bubble, there is a reason why males under 30 and especially under 25 pay higher car insurance.  As a park ranger once pointed out to a large group of people, he had everyone stand.  Had the females sit, then over 30 sit, then under 15 sit.  He pointed out that these are the age group that is most likely to take chances, and wander off trail.  He called the age group the "Hey, hold my drink" group.

 

7 hours ago, Back Pack said:

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by mashmaster
double post

[Back Pack]

20 hours ago, LeCastor said:

The issue of culture and identity have come up several times in this thread.  It's a complicated topic, for sure.  However, I think we need to be careful when we try to compare German and Irish traditions with those of Native American nations.  There is no one NA culture, as there are many, many NA tribes and tribal nations.  As said earlier in this thread, some tribes/nations support OA and work closely with their respective Lodges.  In other cases, the opposite is true.  

I'll politely ask again for you to offer solutions to Packs who may need guidance on best practices when it comes to the next round of AoL ceremonies.  

There’s no one German culture either. If you look at German regions they are equally as diverse as any other country on the planet. The point I was making is that if you remove the Native American elements from OA you can’t replace with with anything without having the same issue of people being angry at the appropriation of their culture. You’d have to go to something so nondiscript that it would be just boring and a waste. So if anyone is going to side with those who want to stop using regalia to be consistent you have to abandon all regalia. And that’s sad. And it’s sad that adults keep making excuses as to why the boys can’t make this decision by standing behind the excuse that we are likely to make mistakes or bad choices. That’s what Boy Scouts is about. Adults should only step in for safety reasons. At least that’s what I’ve read from many folks here. But it seems boy led is only a nice idea when it works for how some adults want to think. Too bad. 

[RememberSchiff]

IMO cultural trademark and other legal protections will be a growing concern. Hawaiians and Polynesians are upset with recent Disney movies. The Amish have received cultural protection from Pennsylvania. Imagine if Lenape lawyers sent a letter to National regarding licensing fees for the OA?

http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1038&context=ipbrief

[Hawkwin]

50 minutes ago, Back Pack said:

And it’s sad that adults keep making excuses as to why the boys can’t make this decision by standing behind the excuse that we are likely to make mistakes or bad choices.

Some bad decisions and choices impact all of BSA and not just your local OA. If the potential fallout from a decision could result in negative national news, then perhaps adults should be more actively involved in providing direction on that issue. Again, such direction is completely consistent with the role of adult leadership within BSA and for being boy-led, boy-run.

 

 

[Jameson76]

21 hours ago, LeCastor said:

I'll politely ask again for you to offer solutions to Packs who may need guidance on best practices when it comes to the next round of AoL ceremonies.  

Local district OA got weary of doing multiple Crossover ceremonies, so they now do 2 Saturday's, at 2 hour intervals.  Also they do them in February, so time compressed for Web II

We have worked with the packs at our CO (there are 2) and now we the troop handles the Crossover ceremony.  This is done late March.  We have the bridge and the Scouts do the ceremony.  Actually works well, not as elaborate but moves along.  Webs get the AOL and arrow presented by the pack.  Then we do the crossover, they wander the bridge, shake hands.  Then there is cake.

[Col. Flagg]

7 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Some bad decisions and choices impact all of BSA and not just your local OA. If the potential fallout from a decision could result in negative national news, then perhaps adults should be more actively involved in providing direction on that issue. Again, such direction is completely consistent with the role of adult leadership within BSA and for being boy-led, boy-run.

As I see it, adults work WITH the boys to help them make decisions, not make the decisions FOR them. This is what appears is being done with the OA. The only time adults should be making decisions for the boys is in the event of health or safety issues. To do otherwise is pretty adult-led.

As @LeCastor asking us to help Packs with the AOL issue, my answer is "How can we?" It's called the ARROW of light and it's image appropriates as much (or arguably even more) than the OA regalia does. If we what to hold true to our collective moral outrage over the OA and regalia, we have to eliminate the AOL use and symbolism.

Until BSA calls it something else, ceremonies should eliminate any native references. The whole bridge thing is about as cool as you're gonna get.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Col. Flagg

[qwazse]

7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMO cultural trademark and other legal protections will be a growing concern. Hawaiians and Polynesians are upset with recent Disney movies. The Amish have received cultural protection from Pennsylvania. Imagine if Lenape lawyers sent a letter to National regarding licensing fees for the OA?

http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1038&context=ipbrief

This is nothing new. In my youth, I was told that arrowmen were not to do a rain dance -- or even a cheap imitation thereof -- because it was mocking a prayer. Other dances that narrated a story we encouraged. Also, certain drums could be replicated, others could not.

I have no idea if that was the insistence of a tribe, some advice from an anthropologist (we had a few in our district),  or pure hearsay. But making pains so as to honor vs. offend was part of the O/A mystique growing up.

[RememberSchiff]

But was there any legal consequences to that demand back then?

[Back Pack]

10 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Some bad decisions and choices impact all of BSA and not just your local OA. If the potential fallout from a decision could result in negative national news, then perhaps adults should be more actively involved in providing direction on that issue. Again, such direction is completely consistent with the role of adult leadership within BSA and for being boy-led, boy-run.

 

 

The decision by lodges does not keep local units from still doing it. So your point is moot. Local units do stuff all the time that could get National in trouble. I’m just glad the adults in my unit allow the youth to make decisions like this. The national youth OA leaders should be making this decision. It’s actually more consistent with the intention and role of Boy Scouts. 

[Eagle94-A1]

On 1/22/2018 at 11:52 AM, Hawkwin said:

As it pertains to crossover ceremonies, I found this (starting on page 81):

https://www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/Webelos_to_Scout.pdf

Seems like it would be more meaningful and impactful than the Native American skit that is now used.

 

Thought I posted this previously so here it goes again.

To my knowledge, all three of those ceremonies linked are adapted from OA ceremonies. The Seven Virtues was the OA ceremony I went through over 30 years ago. I've done both the The Four Winds and The Seven Virtues as a Arrowman, including the Eagle version of the Four Winds. And the Cub Scout Trail is a ceremony I've worked with youth on. All of them have been around for years. And I've only seen OA ceremony teams do them. I've never seen these three ceremonies used by a pack alone.

[Hawkwin]

14 hours ago, Back Pack said:

The decision by lodges does not keep local units from still doing it. So your point is moot. Local units do stuff all the time that could get National in trouble. I’m just glad the adults in my unit allow the youth to make decisions like this.

The point isn't moot. I think you may be having some confusion over the term "direction."

Yes, adults "allow" you to make decisions but that doesn't mean that they cannot or do not provide direction in the process. If your adult leaders chose to not comment at all, then perhaps they don't feel the need in your specific situation.

Providing direction could be something as simple as making a suggestion as to how one aspect or another is more authentic (or more respectful) than another. That doesn't make it any less boy-led or boy-run. A good leader should often seek the advice and wisdom of others. That doesn't mean that the leader becomes a follower in the process.