Advancement + Grade Level

[The Latin Scot]

It's a bit easier in an LDS Pack like mine; as has been mentioned, we use a simple 3-year program. At 8 a boy is a wolf, at 9 he's a bear,  and at 10 he's a Webelos Scout. At 11 they move on to the Troop in a new Scout patrol. Easy to manage, very few complications. Their Primary Sunday School classes go by year as well, so they are always with the same boys from year to year. 

[ItsBrian]

1 hour ago, The Latin Scot said:

It's a bit easier in an LDS Pack like mine; as has been mentioned, we use a simple 3-year program. At 8 a boy is a wolf, at 9 he's a bear,  and at 10 he's a Webelos Scout. At 11 they move on to the Troop in a new Scout patrol. Easy to manage, very few complications. Their Primary Sunday School classes go by year as well, so they are always with the same boys from year to year. 

Is there no AOL (or Webelo 2s) in an LDS Pack?

[Eagle94-A1]

18 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

Is there no AOL (or Webelo 2s) in an LDS Pack?

Correct. Cub Scouts is 3 years long. Then they got to a NSP for 1 year, limited to 3 or 4 camp outs and no summer camp. Then they are in a regular patrol.

It use to be they were a Boy Scout until 14, then became a Venturer automatically, but now I think they stay a Scout until they Eagle or quit.

[NJCubScouter]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

It use to be they were a Boy Scout until 14, then became a Venturer automatically, but now I think they stay a Scout until they Eagle or quit.

I thought that at 14 the LDS Scouts became Varsity Scouts and then at 16 they became Venturers.  And now that the LDS Church no longer uses the Varsity program, virtually nobody uses it, and it is being discontinued.  Right?

On the actual issue, I agree with the previous posts, the Cub Scout should stay with his den.  The one exception that might be justifiable is if he failed to successfully complete the Tiger badge (which, hypothetically, might happen for the same reasons that he failed to successfully complete the First Grade in school.)  But even then, it should be up to the parents.  I guess what I am saying is that whatever is best for the Scout in this difficult situation is what should be done.

[Thunderbird]

For what it's worth, here is what the Guide to Advancement says in section 4.1.0.4 "Do Your Best":

Quote

 

What about a boy who must repeat a grade in

school? Generally, repeating a grade does not mean

being kept back in Cub Scouting, but it depends on

the circumstances and what is best for the boy. The

decision is up to the parent or guardian.

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

@Thunderbird , welcome to scouter.com

[Thunderbird]

Thank you! 

[The Latin Scot]

Most of the above posts have been correct - LDS boys are in Webelos for just a year, so as the Webelos Den Leader, I work to get them their Webelos rank AND their Arrows of Light all in the same year. It's really not too difficult; I have been at it for two years now and have never had a boy fail to earn either. And I don't use the new simplified requirements either, lol.

Also, boys were indeed automatically registered into a Varsity unit at 14, then a Venturing crew at 16 - every U.S. congregation had a Church-sponsored chartered Pack, Troop, Team and Crew of its own up until the change. But because almost nobody understood nor used the Varsity/Venturing programs effectively, we now just stick to a Pack and Troop for each congregation, with boys sticking to the Troop as long as he likes until he turns 18. As for whether this has led to the discontinuing of the Varsity program, I cannot say, though I could see that being a potential result. 

As for the boy in question, I agree with what the Guide says - just because he is held back in school does not mean he has to be help back in Scouting. We are not beholden to what the schools do with their system of advancement. If the boy is current with his Scouting activities, and has no other issues holding him back, he should absolutely move on to the next level with the other boys his age, even if he has to repeat the same school grade a dozen times. ;-)

[ItsBrian]

Some are more street smart than book smart.

Scouting requires street smart (a little book smart), while school requires you to be book smart.

No reason why someone can not excel in scouting but not school. If their parents don’t think they should advance because of that, then it’s the parents choice and opinion.

Edited January 18, 2018 by ItsBrian

[Thunderbird]

I could see it going either way:

Does the Scout have established friendships with the other Cub Scouts in his current den?  Does he go to school with the kids in his new den?  If so, would holding him back a year in Cub Scouts be a good way for him to help make friends in his new grade?  Would he be bored if he had to repeat a year of Cub Scouts?

[5thGenTexan]

15 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I thought that at 14 the LDS Scouts became Varsity Scouts and then at 16 they became Venturers.  And now that the LDS Church no longer uses the Varsity program, virtually nobody uses it, and it is being discontinued.  Right?

On the actual issue, I agree with the previous posts, the Cub Scout should stay with his den.  The one exception that might be justifiable is if he failed to successfully complete the Tiger badge (which, hypothetically, might happen for the same reasons that he failed to successfully complete the First Grade in school.)  But even then, it should be up to the parents.  I guess what I am saying is that whatever is best for the Scout in this difficult situation is what should be done.

 

He has earned Tiger as of last Sunday.  We found out half way through Kindergarten that he has a vision problem.  So he is still kinda playing catch up, while everyone is moving forward.  So the problems at school aren't transferring over to scouts.

 

I never considered him repeating the Tiger year as someone suggested.  I figured if he was not going to be able to advance to Wolf then he would just be finished all together.  Not repeating Tiger and waiting a year to go on the Wolf track wouldn't work out either.

 

I talked with our CC and he is telling me its based on age OR grade, so I don't think there is any reason he cant move on with the rest of the den.

Edited January 18, 2018 by 5thGenTexan
spelling error

[Tampa Turtle]

All the way up to the time they age out of Boy Scouts any given 'age' or 'grade' group vary in physical, emotional, and mental maturity. Scouts is where those differences can be accommodated easier than in a school environment.

[perdidochas]

On 1/16/2018 at 5:24 PM, 5thGenTexan said:

Say a boy needed to repeat the first grade.  If he earned Tiger does he go ahead and work on Wolf with the rest of the den even though he is doing first grade again or is he effectively done with Cub Scouts since there is not really a way to catch up with a grade and age match?

I've seen it done both ways.  I think it depends on the scout and his relationship with his den.  We held my oldest back at 2nd grade (he went through it twice).  We decided at first to let him stay with his den--the den leader was awesome, and he did Bear with his Wolf Den.  However, the boys in that den got increasingly obnoxious, and the Den Leader of the upcoming Bear Den (which was the Wolf Den when my son  was in Bears first) dropped out, and I took it over as a Bear Den Leader.  He liked the younger boys better (the ones that were now in his grade level), and it worked for him. One of our good friends (his son was in my second son's grade level) held his son back in either first or second.  He stayed with them throughout his scouting career, as he had really bonded with them as a Tiger.   It should be decided individually for  each scout, IMHO.  

[perdidochas]

On 1/17/2018 at 2:12 PM, Tampa Turtle said:

If they get held back it is still a blow to their ego, making them 'repeat' a year in Cubs makes no sense.

That's what my son chose to do. We gave him his choice whether to to Bears twice (with me as the Den Leader), or go ahead and go to Webelos. He chose to stay in Bears twice--for him, it was less of an ego blow to be in a den with his current classmates, rather than the ones in the grade ahead of him.  I think this should be done based on the individual scout. A blanket rule doesn't really work, IMHO.  

[perdidochas]

18 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

Most of the above posts have been correct - LDS boys are in Webelos for just a year, so as the Webelos Den Leader, I work to get them their Webelos rank AND their Arrows of Light all in the same year. It's really not too difficult; I have been at it for two years now and have never had a boy fail to earn either. And I don't use the new simplified requirements either, lol.

Also, boys were indeed automatically registered into a Varsity unit at 14, then a Venturing crew at 16 - every U.S. congregation had a Church-sponsored chartered Pack, Troop, Team and Crew of its own up until the change. But because almost nobody understood nor used the Varsity/Venturing programs effectively, we now just stick to a Pack and Troop for each congregation, with boys sticking to the Troop as long as he likes until he turns 18. As for whether this has led to the discontinuing of the Varsity program, I cannot say, though I could see that being a potential result. 

As for the boy in question, I agree with what the Guide says - just because he is held back in school does not mean he has to be help back in Scouting. We are not beholden to what the schools do with their system of advancement. If the boy is current with his Scouting activities, and has no other issues holding him back, he should absolutely move on to the next level with the other boys his age, even if he has to repeat the same school grade a dozen times. ;-)

I agree. It really isn't that bad to do AOL in a year.  I had one boy that did Bobcat, Webelos, and AOL all from late August to early March.