Transfer Advancement from Other Youth Organizations

[Col. Flagg]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:54 AM, ItsBrian said:

Really? GS can use power tools for their project and BS can’t? 

Something for your Eagle project. Here's the list. If you were in my troop our SPL would have handed you this when you got your Life patch, reminding you to use it for your Eagle project. Our PLC uses it to plan all service projects so that guys are working in the right service groups.

Hint: Put that in your Eagle Project Plan and reference it as part of your planning for safety. Most adults don't know it exists, so you will earn some street "cred" with them.

Re: Transfer Eagle Credit: Unless BSA has documented and specific rules for such a thing, no one should be given any credit toward ANY rank or badge unless they were in the proper Scouting program AND the rules allow for it. Do do otherwise is violating the GTA.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Col. Flagg

[Tampa Turtle]

2 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Something for your Eagle project. Here's the list. If you were in my troop our SPL would have handed you this when you got your Life patch, reminding you to use it for your Eagle project. Our PLC uses it to plan all service projects so that guys are working in the right service groups.

Hint: Put that in your Eagle Project Plan and reference it as part of your planning for safety. Most adults don't know it exists, so you will earn some street "cred" with them.

Re: Transfer Eagle Credit: Unless BSA has documented and specific rules for such a thing, no one should be given any credit toward ANY rank or badge unless they were in the proper Scouting program AND the rules allow for it. Do do otherwise is violating the GTA.

Son#1 was waving a pdf of the Guide to Safe Scouting during his Eagle Project prep talk though he was just making some stuff up. Made him look on the ball...Scoutmaster eventually started looking stuff up later sayin' 'I didn't know that?'.

[Col. Flagg]

5 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Son#1 was waving a pdf of the Guide to Safe Scouting during his Eagle Project prep talk though he was just making some stuff up. Made him look on the ball...Scoutmaster eventually started looking stuff up later sayin' 'I didn't know that?'.

Our PLC uses the tools guide and GTA, as well as the age matrix, all the time. Copies are brought to the PLC meetings by the Librarian and they actually use them. It is funny to see the kids referring to the rules to make sure stuff they are considering can be done.

We had one well-meaning dad try to take that responsibility away from the PLC, basically saying they should be focusing on "fun" and not "rules". The SPL basically said, "This is like planning a hike or anything else. We need to apply the rules and guidelines for our safety."

I just smiled. The dad got the message. The boys continued.

[EmberMike]

2 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Re: Transfer Eagle Credit: Unless BSA has documented and specific rules for such a thing, no one should be given any credit toward ANY rank or badge unless they were in the proper Scouting program AND the rules allow for it. Do do otherwise is violating the GTA.

 

It's not the kind of thing that is documented and specific. Transfer requirements/ranks have to be assessed on a case-by-case basis by a council rep. By the very nature of the rule, credit for experience in another scouting organization is open to interpretation. 

We're never going to have a document that says "Scouts Canada Rank X Requirement 1a is suitable for credit towards BSA Rank X Requirement 3b," or something like that. But that doesn't mean that giving such credit breaks any rule. 

[Col. Flagg]

7 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

It's not the kind of thing that is documented and specific. Transfer requirements/ranks have to be assessed on a case-by-case basis by a council rep. By the very nature of the rule, credit for experience in another scouting organization is open to interpretation. 

We're never going to have a document that says "Scouts Canada Rank X Requirement 1a is suitable for credit towards BSA Rank X Requirement 3b," or something like that. But that doesn't mean that giving such credit breaks any rule. 

There has to be a standard or else you have no uniformity. It's unfair to American Eagle Scouts who have gone through the whole program, as written, if even ONE person gets Eagle from outside of Boy Scouts using some contrived, non-standard evaluation process. A standard can be developed *if* there's effort put forth. Otherwise, they should abide by the same rules any US kid has to abide by when he joins Scouts.

Our unit has had several "late bloomers" join as Scouts and work to Eagle before 18. It can be done and they worked their butts off. They didn't get any "carry over" experience despite their very strong outdoor skills. They just worked hard.

[blw2]

it comes to mind lots of discussion some time ago about doing things "under the guise" of scouting.

so for example.... if a kid goes out and hikes the Appalachian trail this summer, he wouldn't qualify for the 2,000 mile patch (or whatever the BSA's highest is) unless he does it as an organized scout activity....with his patrol for example.....  or maybe teh better example might be count it twoards his Backpacking MB unless he was already previously working with said MB counselor....

So if that concept is even edging close to reality.... how then can a kid that two years ago went for his YMCA lifeguard (or whatever) now recpricate taht over toe the BSA swimming merit badge....

....or a Girl that earned Gold long before the idea of becoming a BOY scout was even a twinkle in her eye, use those signoffs towards anything BSA....

[ItsBrian]

3 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Something for your Eagle project. Here's the list. If you were in my troop our SPL would have handed you this when you got your Life patch, reminding you to use it for your Eagle project. Our PLC uses it to plan all service projects so that guys are working in the right service groups.

Hint: Put that in your Eagle Project Plan and reference it as part of your planning for safety. Most adults don't know it exists, so you will earn some street "cred" with them.

Re: Transfer Eagle Credit: Unless BSA has documented and specific rules for such a thing, no one should be given any credit toward ANY rank or badge unless they were in the proper Scouting program AND the rules allow for it. Do do otherwise is violating the GTA.

I'm aware that BSA doesn't allow youth to work with tools. I was just shocked that GSA allows it. 

I have already finished my Eagle project.

[RememberSchiff]

5 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

I'm aware that BSA doesn't allow youth to work with tools. I was just shocked that GSA allows it. 

I have already finished my Eagle project.

Congratulations!!!

[Col. Flagg]

18 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

I'm aware that BSA doesn't allow youth to work with tools. I was just shocked that GSA allows it. 

Talk to a GSUSA leader some time. They can do tons of things without the policies, procedures and such we have to go through in Boy Scouts. However, they'd be jealous of the training we get. Appears they get little to none.

[NJCubScouter]

4 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Talk to a GSUSA leader some time. They can do tons of things without the policies, procedures and such we have to go through in Boy Scouts. However, they'd be jealous of the training we get. Appears they get little to none.is

Based on a couple of conversations I have had with experienced GS leaders over the years, they have MORE mandatory training than the BSA has.  The most recent of these conversations was about 10 years ago, so it is possible things are different now.  It may also be that GS training requirements vary from council to council - just as BSA training requirements used to vary from council to council, not so much now.

[Col. Flagg]

41 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Based on a couple of conversations I have had with experienced GS leaders over the years, they have MORE mandatory training than the BSA has.  The most recent of these conversations was about 10 years ago, so it is possible things are different now.  It may also be that GS training requirements vary from council to council - just as BSA training requirements used to vary from council to council, not so much now.

My friends have a different story to tell. Their training is bad and no where near what we get (IOLS, WRFA, National Camping School, PTC, etc.). They have training, but from what I am told it is so basic that common sense covers it in two minutes.

[HelpfulTracks]

4 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Re: Transfer Eagle Credit: Unless BSA has documented and specific rules for such a thing, no one should be given any credit toward ANY rank or badge unless they were in the proper Scouting program AND the rules allow for it. Do do otherwise is violating the GTA.

This!

I can see certain things occasoinally fulfilling requirements for MB but should be very limited. And if I were to err, I would err on the side of no requirements transferring.

[HelpfulTracks]

Then there is silliness in the other direction.

A troop requires ILST for its leaders. (Fair enough)

A young man is asked to be the OA Troop Rep. He is told he needs to take ILST again but cannot make the training the weekend is offered.

The potential rep has held several troop positions, including PL, ASPL and SPL twice. He has taken and taught ILST, He has taken NYLT and is staffing it. He has taken and taught OA's LLD and taken NLS training. He has or currently holds Chapter officer, Lodge Officer and Section committee chair.

But it is suggested that he is not qualified to hold the OA Rep position unless he take ILST AGAIN.

For full disclosure, the aforementioned Scout is my son.

[EmberMike]

1 hour ago, blw2 said:

...So if that concept is even edging close to reality.... how then can a kid that two years ago went for his YMCA lifeguard (or whatever) now recpricate taht over toe the BSA swimming merit badge....

....or a Girl that earned Gold long before the idea of becoming a BOY scout was even a twinkle in her eye, use those signoffs towards anything BSA....

 

The difference is that some requirements are almost identical from one scouting organization to another. Tie these knots. Demonstrate this first-aid skill. And in an environment that is very similar to the BSA in many cases. Especially Scouts Canada. 

The BSA, as far as I understand the rule, does not allow credit from things done outside of scouting. So that YMCA lifeguard cert wouldn't count. But requirements for the Scouts Canada Swimming Challenge Badge, for example, some of which happen to be nearly identical to the BSA swimming badge requirements (the differernce being meters vs. yards for demonstrating specific strokes) can and should transfer over. In both cases the requirements would have been completed in similar settings, in the course of scouting-related activities, and demonstrating the same specific abilities. 

[blw2]

14 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

My friends have a different story to tell. Their training is bad and no where near what we get (IOLS, WRFA, National Camping School, PTC, etc.). They have training, but from what I am told it is so basic that common sense covers it in two minutes.

kinda like IOLS or BALOO? ....ok, I might have said 10-20 minutes each, but still.....

Honestly, from my perspective BSA's training is not really a strong place to come from.

I can't really comment about Wilderness First Aid....other than the fact I tried for several years to get it but it was so rarely offered....

& I have no idea about national camping school, PTC, or your etc....