Eagle Project Workbook

[NJCubScouter]

4 minutes ago, CherokeeScouter said:

No. My post goes exactly to the three parts. It needs to be two. That is really the heart of the matter. 

Well, it WAS two, until about 5 years ago or so.  I forget whether the first part was called "Proposal", "Plan" or something else, but it included both the proposal and the plan. Basically part 1 was "before" and part 2 was "after" (as part 3 is now.)  My understanding is that the main reason they divided the proposal from the plan is that Scouts were doing the elaborate planning required in the combined first part, only to have the idea itself turned down for being outside the scope of an Eagle project, or for whatever other reason.  National decided to add a step so that the Scout could just outline the proposal (which still has a significant amount of detail, including what I would call "preliminary planning") and then go ahead with the full "planning" process only after the proposal is approved. 

[CherokeeScouter]

Yeah, the "leadership to others" wasn't in the requirement when I did my project. But it was an awesome project that involved tons of Scouting skills. 

We blazed, mapped and marked a 30-mile trail from my hometown to the Scout Camp. I took responsibility for the first 15 miles and my buddy took responsibility for the second 15 for his Eagle project. We did it on weekends, which meant backpacking and camping as we progressed along our route. 

It involved some serious orienteering (90 degrees due east from town to camp and you pretty much had to maintain that heading going from point to point) although we had to detour around a humongous beaver dam.  Then we had to get permissions from landowners. 

But imagine our pride when the District did a camporee called the "Crow Hike," which followed our trail. This was an area of NC that didn't have a lot of hiking trails. 

[Back Pack]

1 hour ago, CherokeeScouter said:

One document consisting of two parts. And if you are insisting on hard signatures, then a signature page that includes both PRE and POST signatures. This way eliminates all the insertion and all that crap. You just scan a signature page when you are done (or take a photo of it) and add to the Workbook. But right now, we have a signature page embedded in the Proposal and a signature page embedded into the Report. Plus the contact info page, which seems totally superfluous to me. 

And do we need we really need a distinction between material and supplies (or whatever it is)?

I'm almost fairly certain I could get the Proposal and the Report down to one page each (10 point). You ought to see the Eagle Reference Letter I did for the Council. It is a thing of beauty. Contains Oath and Law and space for comments. It's one page. 

Here’s the problem with that approach. The proposal is a high level document outlining what you want to do. The plan is the detailed method for execution of the project. That’s how I learned the most was developing and executing the plan. The proposal was meaningless except to lay out my rough idea. The final report forced me to think about what worked and what didn’t. It was a valuable step in helping me prepare for my bor and think through my project and it’s results not to mention how I demonstrated leadership. The only issue is that bsa does not require sign off in the plan so many guys I know wrote them after their project. What good is that. 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, CherokeeScouter said:

...That and digital vs paper. Anything that smacks of paper is step backward. Since we submit the proposals digitally in our district, you have people scanning signature pages and then trying to insert them into the PDF document, which I think is impossible unless you have Adobe's paid product. I don't think the free PDF version allows you insert pages. Plus, we require printed copies at the BOR. Just a cluster any way you look at it. And very few Scouts understand how to digitally compress a photo so that it's small enough to insert into the PDF,  which means they just attach photos. And that turns what should be a 2 MB file into a 5 or 6 MB file, which is too large for some of the freeware email providers. 

... but isn't that the point? Remove council or district approval and the need for duplication plummets.

It doesn't need to be a digital nightmare. Accept the proposal in the form of a plain text E-mail addressing points on an outline ... with the scout attesting that he has collected the requisite signatures. Otherwise, request a hardcopy be mailed to the district or handed to the district advancement chair at round-table.

[Col. Flagg]

5 minutes ago, qwazse said:

... but isn't that the point? Remove council or district approval and the need for duplication plummets.

It doesn't need to be a digital nightmare. Accept the proposal in the form of a plain text E-mail addressing points on an outline ... with the scout attesting that he has collected the requisite signatures. Otherwise, request a hardcopy be mailed to the district or handed to the district advancement chair at round-table.

There are digital alternatives that can be done which fix many of the technology problems noted in this thread. There are free programs (and low cost commercial ones) that BSA could use which would 1) standardize the process which will save time, 2) implement a standard method for providing photos, etc., without losing data, and 3) allow for a digital workflow (again, standardized) which would allow everyone to submit the same way, using the same open, free and easy to use system.

Case in point: Google Classroom. This software is quite easy to use and could easily be customized to fit the Eagle process. It is easy to use and comes with tutorials to help the Luddites. Just an example.

[RememberSchiff]

18 hours ago, qwazse said:

... but isn't that the point? Remove council or district approval and the need for duplication plummets.

It doesn't need to be a digital nightmare. Accept the proposal in the form of a plain text E-mail addressing points on an outline ... with the scout attesting that he has collected the requisite signatures. Otherwise, request a hardcopy be mailed to the district or handed to the district advancement chair at round-table.

Thumbs way up!

Back in the day (here he goes again), I typed my Eagle project report using two sheets of carbon paper, so there were only three hard copies - mine,  my troop EBOR, district EBOR.  At the EBOR, the report was handed over and passed around the table with questions asked. The district EBOR received a letter from the CO, that the project had been completed.  The troop EBOR already knew the project had been completed. Simple, not a government project. No Eagle advisor needed beyond my SM saying "Get it done" and it was my responsibility to "get it done".

Should National or Council archive Eagle Project workbooks?  I can't see the need.

[CherokeeScouter]

Wouldn't it be great if we could somehow fix this problem? Which brings me back to my OP. Does anyone from National follow this forum?  

[Back Pack]

Had to google “carbon paper”. 

[Tampa Turtle]

39 minutes ago, Back Pack said:

Had to google “carbon paper”. 

Magical stuff. I am just old enough to have to write a thesis on a typewriter. But it was electric and had an auto-correct tape feature. You have no idea what you missed.

In grade school I just loved the smell of the mimeograph machine in the morning. It smelled like victory.

[Back Pack]

31 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Magical stuff. I am just old enough to have to write a thesis on a typewriter. But it was electric and had an auto-correct tape feature. You have no idea what you missed.

In grade school I just loved the smell of the mimeograph machine in the morning. It smelled like victory.

Ok. Now I had to google that too. I guess this is like when my mom has to google tinder or Snapchat or text slang. Can’t wait for my dad to chime in with walking home uphill both ways. Not like I didn’t hear that daily growing up. 

[RememberSchiff]

Carbon paper was a big improvement over using Silly Putty to transfer print. Carbon paper was legal size 8 1/2 x 11 but it could not do color transfer like Silly Putty.

In high school, mimeograph machines smelled liked a "surprise" quiz was coming that day.

[Stosh]

For the really cheapo schools there was always the ditto machines.      If one had a mimeograph, they were high class, and if one thinks mimeograph ink smelled, the whole school would know the ditto machine was up and running.

And by the way, I got a real kick out of the the carbon paper comment.  Scared the cat.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

6 hours ago, CherokeeScouter said:

Wouldn't it be great if we could somehow fix this problem? Which brings me back to my OP. Does anyone from National follow this forum?  

There is a regular member of this forum who has identified himself as the head of health and safety for the BSA.  Whether he brings ideas mentioned in this forum to the people at National who are responsible for that area, I don't know.

[ItsBrian]

I personally found it extremely easy to fill out, and it took me little time. The only time it repeats is some things from the proposal is in the final report.

It was a pain emailing and sometimes loading but it worked.

Ive done it within the past 4-5 months so it’s pretty recent.

[NJCubScouter]

In my college days I typed newspaper articles on manual typewriters, with carbon paper.  At my first summer job on a non-college newspaper, I graduated to electrics, but still with carbon paper.  I think in the latter, we were making two copies (in other words, a piece of paper, carbon paper, paper, carbon paper, paper.  In 1980 I got a job on a newspaper that had computers - but the actual computers were mainframes in another room.  What I was working on was really just a terminal.