Council too tightly managing communication - Venting

[DuctTape]

I encourage patrol camping over troop camping. 2 vehicles is usually enough for a patrol (6-8 scouts) and gear plus the two adults driving (3 at most). No need for trailer, or plethora of adults. Most locations for awesome trips don't have space for 20 people to camp, many areas do not allow groups sizes that big anyway. The ones that do are car camping sites. Many issues troops have, as referenced in this thread could be mitigated by focusing on patrol camping. Save the troop-centric camping for the camporees, etc... There are many other benefits as well. For example, Imagine a patrol trip with only 2 adults, the SM and a parent. The SM can use that time to train the parent. A different patrol goes to a completely different location and has 2 ASMs and a parent on their campout. Again, the parent learns from the ASMs. 

[perdidochas]

2 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Last year the PLC tried to have a rule that no vehicles but trailer in camp, even tried picking sites where you had to walk in your gear but adults kept violating it. Kudos for trying.

Our council has major problems with that on camporees/Cub Scout family camps/Webelo Weekends.  It irritates me to no end.  The worst part about it is that its actually worse the higher up in Scouts you go. The camporees have much more problem with this than the Webelos, and the Webelos are worse than the Cub Scouts.  

[Tampa Turtle]

@perdidochas "The camporees have much more problem with this" Amen, amen, amen. I feel like I am camping in a parking lot even when they restrict to only 'needed' trailers. Some troops bring a food truck. 

[Eagle94-A1]

13 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Our council has major problems with that on camporees/Cub Scout family camps/Webelo Weekends.  It irritates me to no end.  The worst part about it is that its actually worse the higher up in Scouts you go. The camporees have much more problem with this than the Webelos, and the Webelos are worse than the Cub Scouts.  

Seen it too. Irony is that  the Council VP of Camping was complaining to me about Cub Family camping and how the families bring everything but the kitchen sink. This was while loading up his truck with all of his gear for a display promoting Boy Scout camping. I was the one promoting Cub Scout camping, and everything fit either in my backpack, or in my hands (trifold display). Grant you, my pack is 85-90L but it beats hi extended cab pickup.

Although I admit, the family that brought their RV to Webeloree b/c mom was pregnant was the worse thing I saw.

[Stosh]

After 45+ years, I took my boys out for a camping/fishing outing this past fall.  We got out there in the rain and it literally down-poured while setting up camp, in the dark.  I had warned my boys that this day was going to be coming down the road someday and voila, there it was in full fury.  After helping the boys get settled in, it was my time to set up my tent..... NO WAY.  I crawled into the back of my pickup truck to get out of the rain, blew up the air mattress so I didn't sleep on the rippled flooring, changed into dry clothes and went to bed.  The mattress leaked so I got up every hour or so to blow it back up.  Had a miserable night.  I think the Scouting God was punishing me for not sleeping in a soaked tent with soaked sleeping bag and soaked clothes.  I'm getting too old for this!

[Eagle94-A1]

7 hours ago, Back Pack said:

I have a question. If it’s a family camp out do the bsa rules apply? What about insurance? I ask because our Sm taught our PLC to consider these issues for educational purposes. He wanted us to be aware of the stuff the adults need to consider. I must admit it’s been a few years since I was jasm and I don’t recall hearing about how family camping is handled, mainly because we never did it. 

Good questions. The assumption is that because it is a 'family camp out" with each family responsible for themselves, they do not have to follow BSA rules. But I bet if an accident happens, things will hit the fan.

[Stosh]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Good questions. The assumption is that because it is a 'family camp out" with each family responsible for themselves, they do not have to follow BSA rules. But I bet if an accident happens, things will hit the fan.

I just got back from my UC/roundtable meeting and this issue came up on the rechartering discussion we had.  If a mom and/or dad shows up for a scout outing and are not registered (and to be registered they need YPT) , they are NOT covered by any BSA insurance.  Neither are unregistered siblings whether the parents are registered or not.  One has to be registered to be covered.  Also the parent who is not registered and YPT trained as the 2-deep puts not only themselves in limbo, they open up the CO to any liability issues as well.  One might be wise to find out what the CO's insurance is and what their policies are as well as those of the BSA.  I know for a fact that most church youth organizations require background checks and approval.  The COR handles this, but if the SM takes on parents that are not members of the church and/or not registered with BSA, there could be a lot of 'splainin' to do if something goes wrong and lawyers get involved.

[RememberSchiff]

IMHO, families will view their BSA unit as "tour guides" and hold the BSA and unit responsible for anything that goes wrong on any outdoor activities.

Perhaps when a scout activity transforms into a family activity, the SM pulls the plug on any troop/BSA involvement. No troop gear used, no discussion/planning of Family Outing on troop time,  not on the troop calendar, no advancement, ....

For a scout activity, the SM/TC needs to manage the adult herd to only those needed for supervision and logistics, similar to the way schools chaperone class trips.

My $0.02

Edited January 12, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[Tampa Turtle]

49 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, families will view their BSA unit as "tour guides" and hold the BSA and unit responsible for anything that goes wrong on any outdoor activities.

 

I have seen this attitude at Pack camp-outs (often the less engaged parents) and occasionally at Troop events when a dad gets brow beaten into spending quality time with their son, bails out half way, and expects the Troop to accommodate them. Like 1/2 of a 2 man canoe with gear bails out, in the Everglades, on day 2 of a 4 day trip, in my canoe.

Not that it bothers me.

[Stosh]

So the program continues to escalate from boys, to boys and their siblings down to kindergarten level , to all girls but in separate dens/troops, to moms, dads, step-moms, step-dads, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and siblings of grandchildren and we still call it Boy Scouts?  Some of these people are covered by insurance, some are not.  Some of these people are YPT trained, some are not.  And so who's getting dumped with sorting all of this out?  TADAAAH!  The Scoutmaster.  So, to go from taking small groups of boys out on activities with another scouter, the expectation is now to ........   Really?

This ain't Kansas anymore..... Mr. Barnum.

[Jameson76]

53 minutes ago, Stosh said:

So the program continues to escalate from boys, to boys and their siblings down to kindergarten level , to all girls but in separate dens/troops, to moms, dads, step-moms, step-dads, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and siblings of grandchildren and we still call it Boy Scouts?  Some of these people are covered by insurance, some are not.  Some of these people are YPT trained, some are not.  And so who's getting dumped with sorting all of this out?  TADAAAH!  The Scoutmaster.  So, to go from taking small groups of boys out on activities with another scouter, the expectation is now to ........   Really?

This ain't Kansas anymore..... Mr. Barnum.

Honestly it will become a movement of many types of units.  (talking the 11 and older crowd, lord knows what cubs will evolve to).  The family based units will rise and fall, take a lot of care, and will not be scouts as we (well some of us) know it.  There will also be  the BS4G units, these will be new, maybe some experienced scouters, they may be "sister" troops to existing units and these will quietly become co-ed units.

Then there will be the traditional Boy Scout troops.  Those of us running these and providing Boy Scouts the outdoor program, patrol method, and leadership experiences will continue on.  We will be there, doing monthly outings, weekly meetings, Greenbars and scouts doing the planning.  Already some of these units do not participate in district events, shun the council camporees.  We will take a wait and see what happens attitude for week long summer camps as that develops.

If you want to find us, come out to the woods.  The scouts will be camped in one area, the few leaders a good bit away.  No families, siblings, or pets.  Vehicles parked a good well out of sight.  Hopefully the troop will be one step above Lord of the Flies running a program that at it's core is designed to fail, so the scouts can learn from that experience.

[Tampa Turtle]

@Jameson76 I get the 'true believer' in the middle of chaos thing...I think Scouting in the U.S. will survive even if BSA may not...but a downside will be that we ALL will be branded with whatever poor behavior any family units might do at parks, etc. Boy Scouts already have a mixed reputation with a lot of rangers.

In addition there were more push-back from parents when you try to do a traditional program because the troop they were at before the move seemed like it did a totally different program.

[Jameson76]

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

@Jameson76 I get the 'true believer' in the middle of chaos thing...I think Scouting in the U.S. will survive even if BSA may not...but a downside will be that we ALL will be branded with whatever poor behavior any family units might do at parks, etc. Boy Scouts already have a mixed reputation with a lot of rangers.

In addition there were more push-back from parents when you try to do a traditional program because the troop they were at before the move seemed like it did a totally different program.

Absolutely spot on.  We are going down the fortress of solitude path. 

There are two packs at the CO.  One is (was??) embracing the addition of girls into the pack, but not sure how that will be done.  One is not.   We are not 100% sure about the annual Webelos visitation in the fall, not sure if there will be any girls.  Key is we will set the bar that yes they can visit, but they cannot join this particular troop. 

As the large troop in the area we are planning to continue business as usual.  If the CO wants to sponsor and start a BS4G troop, enjoy.  Our position at this time is that would in fact be a separate unit.  There was a Venture crew at the CO and the advisor wanted to dual register all of our older scouts to keep the charter.  Our feedback was that's great, but that will be the scouts decision, and you will need some program for them.  As they had no members, it was a tough sell.   Same will be if there is a BS4G unit.  If they need leaders, they will need to recruit leaders, get trained, and enjoy their scouting journey.  No paper leaders

[Tampa Turtle]

17 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Absolutely spot on.  We are going down the fortress of solitude path. 

There are two packs at the CO.  One is (was??) embracing the addition of girls into the pack, but not sure how that will be done.  One is not.   We are not 100% sure about the annual Webelos visitation in the fall, not sure if there will be any girls.  Key is we will set the bar that yes they can visit, but they cannot join this particular troop. 

As the large troop in the area we are planning to continue business as usual.  If the CO wants to sponsor and start a BS4G troop, enjoy.  Our position at this time is that would in fact be a separate unit.  There was a Venture crew at the CO and the advisor wanted to dual register all of our older scouts to keep the charter.  Our feedback was that's great, but that will be the scouts decision, and you will need some program for them.  As they had no members, it was a tough sell.   Same will be if there is a BS4G unit.  If they need leaders, they will need to recruit leaders, get trained, and enjoy their scouting journey.  No paper leaders

I think my SPL son nailed it a while ago when I asked him for his opinion and while he'd prefer no girls it was not that big a deal to him compared with adults ruining the program.

[Col. Flagg]

13 hours ago, Stosh said:

I just got back from my UC/roundtable meeting and this issue came up on the rechartering discussion we had.  If a mom and/or dad shows up for a scout outing and are not registered (and to be registered they need YPT) , they are NOT covered by any BSA insurance.  Neither are unregistered siblings whether the parents are registered or not. 

 

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, families will view their BSA unit as "tour guides" and hold the BSA and unit responsible for anything that goes wrong on any outdoor activities.

Exactly why my unit requires ALL parents to register. We also do NOT allow any un-registered siblings to attend camp outs. At the end of the day the CO, SM and CMT Chair are the ones with their butts on the line if something goes wrong. We make sure (by checking paperwork) that all cars are properly insured and inspected too. We have a dad who owns a garage and he does a $30 inspection on any cars that are going to carry troop kids. The troop reimburses for gas. ALL adults are YPT trained and even CRP/AED (which we have two portable ones).  We've had these policies in place for many years now. We get a few folks that complain...maybe one a year. And yes, we DO have a family camp out once a year just to meet the requests from those who want such a thing.