Council too tightly managing communication - Venting

[Eagle94-A1]

16 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

 

Exactly why my unit requires ALL parents to register. We also do NOT allow any un-registered siblings to attend camp outs. At the end of the day the CO, SM and CMT Chair are the ones with their butts on the line if something goes wrong.

What if the parents are registered as Cub Scout leaders and the siblings are Cub Scouts?

Yes, we had that happen. ASM brought his TDL wife and Tiger to camporee. When I brought it to the adults in the troop's attention that Cub Scouts, except Webelos checking out troop, were not allo wed to camp at camporee, I got so much pushback that the family was "family camping," and that the Tiger would not be an issue, I said the heck with it. DE brought this on by allowing a Cub event at the same time and location as camporee. I had bigger issues to deal with, especially since I had to redo a campwide orienteering course since locations where events were going to be had to be moved due to Cub Scouts.

 

EDITED: If my sons didn't have friends in the troop and were trying to change it, I'd quit by now. The Family Camping garbage and all it entails is really chapping my hide.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Eagle94-A1

[RememberSchiff]

Just now, Col. Flagg said:

 

Exactly why my unit requires ALL parents to register. We also do NOT allow any un-registered siblings to attend camp outs. At the end of the day the CO, SM and CMT Chair are the ones with their butts on the line if something goes wrong. We make sure (by checking paperwork) that all cars are properly insured and inspected too. We have a dad who owns a garage and he does a $30 inspection on any cars that are going to carry troop kids. The troop reimburses for gas. ALL adults are YPT trained and even CRP/AED (which we have two portable ones).  We've had these policies in place for many years now. We get a few folks that complain...maybe one a year. And yes, we DO have a family camp out once a year just to meet the requests from those who want such a thing.

Glad it works for you, that would be the last thing we would do.

Our SM carefully "encourages" only parents who understand the program (specifically this is not Cub Scouts and scout-run) to register as an adult leader.  Our ASM, who is Outing Coordinator,  selects from that pool, sort of like the start of the old Mission Impossible tv show.

Just anybody and everybody registering as an adult leader without any knowledge of Boy Scouts is asking for trouble. Can an adult still register without taking YPT? Yes, how dumb is that. Oh , within 30 days, you are supposed to  .... Train, test and pass, then register.  Sort of like Show, Tell, Do.

If the troop said that I  had to go to another mechanic to inspect my family car or pay $30 when the state charges $7,  bye. 

[Tampa Turtle]

I am concerned that the conceptual model of 'Family Camping' will only hold up until a few unregistered siblings get hurt at an event and a good lawyer finds big enough hole to drive a "this is really an offical BSA event" through. Even partial liability will be worth a few new pages in Scouter. I guess it gives risk management job security along with the headaches.

[Col. Flagg]

9 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What if the parents are registered as Cub Scout leaders and the siblings are Cub Scouts?

Yes, we had that happen. ASM brought his TDL wife and Tiger to camporee. When I brought it to the adults in the troop's attention that Cub Scouts, except Webelos checking out troop, were not allo wed to camp at camporee, I got so much pushback that the family was "family camping," and that the Tiger would not be an issue, I said the heck with it. DE brought this on by allowing a Cub event at the same time and location as camporee. I had bigger issues to deal with, especially since I had to redo a campwide orienteering course since locations where events were going to be had to be moved due to Cub Scouts.

 

EDITED: If my sons didn't have friends in the troop and were trying to change it, I'd quit by now. The Family Camping garbage and all it entails is really chapping my hide.

If they are visiting us, then being registered (and trained) with a Pack works. But if they have a Scout registered in our unit then they need to meet these requirements.

I have to agree on the family camping issue. It's not Boy Scouting, that's Cub Scouting. I get one event per year or so for the family, but to open all events to the family is NOT what Boy Scouting is about IMHO.

[Col. Flagg]

9 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Glad it works for you, that would be the last thing we would do.

Our SM carefully "encourages" only parents who understand the program (specifically this is not Cub Scouts and scout-run) to register as an adult leader.  Our ASM, who is Outing Coordinator,  selects from that pool, sort of like the start of the old Mission Impossible tv show.

Just anybody and everybody registering as an adult leader without any knowledge of Boy Scouts is asking for trouble. Can an adult still register without taking YPT? Yes, how dumb is that. Oh , within 30 days, you are supposed to  .... Train, test and pass, then register.  Sort of like Show, Tell, Do.

If the troop said that I  had to go to another mechanic to inspect my family car or pay $30 when the state charges $7,  bye. 

Well, I can tell you that by using this approach we've built a huge pool of active, eager, well-trained adults who understand BSA policy and help to make sure it is implemented. How that's a bad thing I don't quite understand. In fact, it makes us one of the units that's well-respected in council because we seem to avoid the silly issues many other units experience. When I tell them what we do, and how little time it takes to administer and manage, they see the effectiveness of this program. And yes, we've had folks that had ZERO knowledge of Boy Scouts and put them through our parent orientation and troop committee training. These folks have become some of our BEST adult volunteers. Think of it this way: If you spend all that time investing in training and development of the Scouts, why wouldn't you do something similar for the adults? The unit and the kids benefit greatly.

As for the inspection, I should mention that the $30 is the cost in our state. If you do it through our guy the state inspection is included AND when he finds any little issues he usually fixes them for free.

All you need to do is have one accident involving one of your vehicles and you will change your mind. It is a terrible thing to lose a Scout in your unit. You can complain about the $30 all you want, but if your kid is riding in a car that is "state inspected" and something goes wrong, I am willing to be you'd go back in time and spend that $30. Oddly enough we've NEVER had a parent balk about spending that money. Why? Safety. They know their car and everyone else's has been inspected well KNOWING that it will be carrying their kid someday. Put a price on that!

[Tampa Turtle]

13 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Well, I can tell you that by using this approach we've built a huge pool of active, eager, well-trained adults who understand BSA policy and help to make sure it is implemented. How that's a bad thing I don't quite understand. In fact, it makes us one of the units that's well-respected in council because we seem to avoid the silly issues many other units experience. When I tell them what we do, and how little time it takes to administer and manage, they see the effectiveness of this program. And yes, we've had folks that had ZERO knowledge of Boy Scouts and put them through our parent orientation and troop committee training. These folks have become some of our BEST adult volunteers. Think of it this way: If you spend all that time investing in training and development of the Scouts, why wouldn't you do something similar for the adults? The unit and the kids benefit greatly.

As for the inspection, I should mention that the $30 is the cost in our state. If you do it through our guy the state inspection is included AND when he finds any little issues he usually fixes them for free.

All you need to do is have one accident involving one of your vehicles and you will change your mind. It is a terrible thing to lose a Scout in your unit. You can complain about the $30 all you want, but if your kid is riding in a car that is "state inspected" and something goes wrong, I am willing to be you'd go back in time and spend that $30. Oddly enough we've NEVER had a parent balk about spending that money. Why? Safety. They know their car and everyone else's has been inspected well KNOWING that it will be carrying their kid someday. Put a price on that!

The great thing about this approach is it increases 'the cost of admittance' and quickly weeds out folks who are gonna balk at more expense and inconvenience. YPT does that a little bit. 

[Col. Flagg]

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

The great thing about this approach is it increases 'the cost of admittance' and quickly weeds out folks who are gonna balk at more expense and inconvenience. YPT does that a little bit. 

Sort of, @Tampa Turtle. 

So we charge the pure cost of adult registration. Not a big costs for people in my area. Most units in my area charge adults WAY more than $33 we charge. Some charge as much as $75 for adult leaders and "volunteer" registration...per year!!!

The $30 inspection fee for the vehicle is done later in the year. If anyone cannot afford it we have part of the fund-raising budget that goes to operations which would cover such things. Same goes for any vehicle that does not have electronic breaking system for the tow hitch. The troop pays for that too. That's at least $150 worth of gear and labor.

The training we do we've worked in to a short three-hour session. We have them do YPT there, we cover CPR-AED and we cover troop operations. After they pass that YPT is done annually be themselves and CPR-AED is offered a few times a year (expires every two years) during troop meetings. We even can re-cert WRFA for those expiring. Safe Swim and the other online courses are strongly encouraged even for parents. We have about a 60% uptake on that training being done as well. Go figure.

We think this gives the parents piece of mind that their kids are in the hands of people who all have the same standard baseline training.

[RememberSchiff]

 

We obviously prefer a small pool of trained BSA leaders and have found it is more conducive to a scout-run unit. Works for us.

I will stick with my mechanic and his partner. I know him and trust him to protect my family as he has for 20+ years.  I think your troop has good intentions but is greatly increasing your liability risk down the road, so to speak.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[Col. Flagg]

11 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

We obviously prefer a small pool of trained BSA leaders and have found it is more conducive to a scout-run unit. Works for us.

I will stick with my mechanic and his partner. I know him and trust him to protect my family as he has for 20+ years.  I think your troop has good intentions but I think your unit is greatly increasing your liability risk down the road, so to speak.

You're missing my point:

• We still have a Scout-run unit. This is back office stuff every unit has to deal with. We've just made sure that everyone involved and working with our Scouts has a standard training and understanding of safety, rules, policy and procedure.
• We keep to the leader-to-Scout ratio. Any additional adults are there because we needed cars, BUT we have at least made sure they are trained and know policy. They convert oxygen to carbon dioxide, assist in adult cooking/cleaning and drive. Everything else is handled by the trained leaders.
• BTW, our trained leaders (ASMs) all have the same training the SM is required to have. That also means that all the online courses are done too. Why? So that if the SM is ever incapacitated ANY of our ASMs could step in to his role.
• Liability is NOT on the unit for the inspection, it is on the garage. Our attorney has already confirmed this. Having lost a Scout to a vehicle accident previously (not unit-related) I can tell you this step has been immeasurably comforting and works. The unit is no more exposed on this issue than your's is.
• Lastly, our unit avoids many of the silly issues that other units (perhaps even yours) runs in to by NOT making sure parents know the rules and are similarly trained. The best part is that all of this takes not longer than any other unit's training. In fact, because we have centralized it we actually do it faster.

As for "scout-run", our unit is entirely boy-led and uses the patrol method. The things noted above are outside of their purview. Nothing we do for the adults diminishes the boy-led aspect of our unit, despite your implication to the contrary...but thanks.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Col. Flagg

[RememberSchiff]

We agree to disagree.

[Col. Flagg]

5 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

We agree to disagree.

No. We don't. You implied something incorrect. I have given your facts about how something works. You don't like it, and that's fine. But you cannot imply that my unit is any less "scout-led" by virtue of what we do and how we operate behind the scenes. You also implied that we open our unit up to increased liability. Again, a false statement as we have had attorneys look at this and confirm this is not the case.

So no, we don't agree to disagree. Your statements are incorrect.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Col. Flagg

[RememberSchiff]

As presented, your system works for you while ours, a different system, works for us.

We agree to disagree on approaches.

 

[Col. Flagg]

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

As presented, your system works for you while ours, a different system, works for us.

We agree to disagree on approaches.

 

Fine. But that doesn't mean our approach would not work for you. You just don't like it.

And I am still a bit miffed that you cannot see how you disparaged my unit in your post and retract it. Yet if one of us non-mods did such a thing we'd surely find a warning in our inbox. Go figure.

[RememberSchiff]

As you may recall some of my earlier posts, at one time we had 20+ adult leaders in a troop of 36-40 scouts. It didn't work,  it was an adult-run outing club.  Good riddance.  What we have now does work, and yes I like a working scout-run troop.

I gave my opinion about the risk regarding a troop mechanic,  your attorney or attorneys feel different.

Anyway, we agree to disagree, meaning each side has stated their positions and they are resolute. There is no need for further bickering, er argument I mean.

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

Boys play nice or at least make the bickering more flavorful and entertaining.