Star Wars: The Last Jedi and the Boy (Girl) Scouts of America

[NJCubScouter]

Without debating which of two ridiculous things is more ridiculous, I agree that the Jedi-celibacy thing is ridiculous. I think that was done simply to make the Anakin-Palme relationship “forbidden,” and therefore more interesting, without considering the wider implications.

i didn’t like the prequels much either, but I have liked the sequels.

[Eagle94-A1]

What really ticked me off about the Jedi celibacy thing is that Lucasfilm approved all kinds of Expanded Universe materials that had married Jedi and their children. Heck even Luke Skywalker marries Mara Jade, and they have Ben Skywalker.

[SSF]

23 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I have been avoiding reading this thread because I hadn't seen the movie.

Earlier this evening, my wife and I saw it.  (I guess that has become our idea of a wild New Year's Eve date.)

I barely recognize the movie I just saw from many of the comments in this thread (including the Vanity Fair article.)  I thought it was a good movie, if somewhat derivative of Episode V.  There was no Jar Jar Binks and the Porgs were at least tolerable.  And there were more humorous moments in this one than any previous SW film, though my wife just told me that the humor is one of the reasons it has been criticized.  (I like humor.)  It also had a lot of action and adventure.  I liked that too.

To paraphrase the immortal words of William Shatner:  "It's a movie!"  And it should be evaluated on that basis.

 

This wasn't a movie. This was propaganda masquerading itself as family entertainment. This is how real social engineering occurs.

[TAHAWK]

Another way to "vote" is to stay and work to brighten the corner of Scouting where you are.

 

Have J. Depp and "Babs" left the U.S. as promised in 2004 when they were unhappy?

[NJCubScouter]

15 minutes ago, SSF said:

This wasn't a movie. This was propaganda masquerading itself as family entertainment. This is how real social engineering occurs.

I am sorry you did not enjoy the movie.

[RememberSchiff]

8 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Another way to "vote" is to stay and work to brighten the corner of Scouting where you are.

IMO, that would make a great commercial for BSA.

Final scene where a young man walks outside, looks to night sky, smiles, and then looks at his rebel (symbol) ring.

Young person inside with real turmoil on tv, game turmoil on Xbox, walks outside into light, smiles, and puts on his Scout (symbol) hat.  The Rebellion.

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[Gwaihir]

On 12/28/2017 at 11:39 AM, David CO said:

I saw the movie last week with the grandkids. I wouldn't have gone to see it except for my wanting to spend some time with the kids. I didn't like it at all.

All the things you say about the tone of the film is true. One thing you didn't mention is the film's anti-religion sub-theme. The film implies that religion is the cause of all strife, and that the only solution is to abandon the old religious writings and customs. 

Yes, I do see a parallel with BSA.

 

I didn't get that at all, unless you feel the villain, Kylo Ren is right.  By the end of the film, Luke realizes he was wrong.  

That said, the plot device used for Luke made little sense considering his actions in the OT.  

[Tampa Turtle]

I enjoyed it ..I liked it had a land war scene (which should not be a spoiler) but I could care less over the good/evil path angst of all the different characters.  Just make a decision and get on with the story! I saw it with some teens and there main comments were about the new aliens, critters, and gear (all the chrome). One son of mine already knew about all the 'religion angst' thread and laughed it was only an issue for those people who follow a Star Wars based religious philosophy (which sadly includes more than one of his teachers in H.S.). People have been complaining about religion for generations...if you are a person of faith you gotta grow a thicker skin for all media these days. Besides Jar-Jar clearly was an abomination and proof of a malevolent force in the world. The fact that the franchise is wrenched away from the ever questionable judgement of George Lucas is a sign of God's grace and mercy.

It was an enjoyable enough installment, I was sad at the demise of a character or two but it keeps you on your toes.

I think Luke was really sad that like many of us aging guys he was unable to slim down more for a major motion picture because it just gets so dang hard. From what we saw he seemed to have a pretty healthy diet!

[NJCubScouter]

40 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I enjoyed it ..I liked it had a land war scene (which should not be a spoiler) but I could care less over the good/evil path angst of all the different characters.  Just make a decision and get on with the story!

Well, but the "angst" has been a part of Star Wars for a long time, at least since Return of the Jedi. There has just been more of it in the last two films, and particularly in this one.  I do think there could have been somewhat less of it.

As for "spoilers," I think there already so many in this thread (some by implication, some directly) that it probably doesn't matter anymore.

Edited January 2, 2018 by NJCubScouter

[Sentinel947]

18 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What really ticked me off about the Jedi celibacy thing is that Lucasfilm approved all kinds of Expanded Universe materials that had married Jedi and their children. Heck even Luke Skywalker marries Mara Jade, and they have Ben Skywalker.

That was after the destruction of the Jedi Order, even if the books were written before the prequels. Besides, the Expanded Universe is now "unofficial." 

As for other's claims of "propaganda." Most movies are trying to tell a story, teach a lesson, something like that. For example, Jurassic Park, like it's much source material, is about the dangers of science separated from "Yes we can, but should we?" Another favorite of mine is Ender's Game, where bullying, racism (specism), and "do ends justify the means?" are key aspects of that novel (and it's much worse movie adaptation.) Another favorite of mine is Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, Aka Blade Runner, which explores "What is being human?" 

What lesson do you think the Last Jedi is trying to teach and why? I'm not sure I take many lessons out of Star Wars, which has always been relatively shallow Space Fantasy (not science fiction.) Star Wars has some very broad underlying themes. (Authoritarianism is bad, Democracy is good.) The new movie had some badly shoehorned in social pontificating about "arms dealing" but that's hardly "social engineering" is it? 

[Eagle94-A1]

40 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

That was after the destruction of the Jedi Order, even if the books were written before the prequels. Besides, the Expanded Universe is now "unofficial." 

Actually I'm talking about the Dark Horse Comics and Old Republic books. Yes I know the Rat turned the EU into 'Legends," but Lucasfilm had an entire department whose sole purpose was to make sure EVERYTHING, except for stuff done before they existed i.e. Splinter of the Mind's Eye,  fit into all the other novels, comics, and videogames. So stuff that Zahn wrote was connected to Anderson's work. Heck the two even collaborated for a short story.

Jedi marriage was in the media written before TPM came out and the celibacy thing came about. Prior to the Rat's take over, only Lucas could get away with ignoring the EU. And he did so with the prequels.

[NJCubScouter]

Now that I have seen the thing, and have read this thread, I have read a little further and have learned some of the reasons why some people don't like it.  One of the reasons is that it (and Episode VII) contradicts what was in the books and other media (which apparently was called the "expanded universe"), which is what Eagle94A-1 is talking about.

I am not part of the group that cares about this.  To me, Star Wars is the films themselves.  I did once read one Star Wars novel. Or more accurately, if I recall correctly, I read about half of it before losing interest and setting it aside, apparently forever.  This was in the late 80s or early 90s, and the book covered events after the "fall of the Empire" in Episode VI, but it was definitely published before the prequel trilogy started.  I do seem to recall that Han and Leia had children (twins?) and I am not sure whether Luke was married or not.   I think the name of the book was "Heir to the Empire", and I strongly suspect that from that, Eagle94-A1 can tell us who wrote it, when it was published and summarize the plot.  (Please don't feel compelled to do the latter.   )  It just didn't hold my attention.  As I recall it was mostly about the politics of the post-Empire period, and while I don't mind the political intrigue in the movies, for some reason when it comes to books I prefer my politics in non-fiction form. 

More to the point, I doubt that most of people I saw the movie with were any more familiar with the books, comic books and whatever else, than I was.  They were just there to see the movie.  Most of them have probably seen the previous seven, as had my wife and I.  (And I don't think my wife had even read part of any of the books.)

On the other hand, Eagle94A-1, the theater at which we saw the movie DOES have a liquor license.   It is a "dine-in theater" and they do serve adult beverages.  My wife and I stuck with popcorn and Diet Coke.  For outrageous prices of course, but we don't see that many movies in the theater anymore.

[SSF]

3 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

That was after the destruction of the Jedi Order, even if the books were written before the prequels. Besides, the Expanded Universe is now "unofficial." 

As for other's claims of "propaganda." Most movies are trying to tell a story, teach a lesson, something like that. For example, Jurassic Park, like it's much source material, is about the dangers of science separated from "Yes we can, but should we?" Another favorite of mine is Ender's Game, where bullying, racism (specism), and "do ends justify the means?" are key aspects of that novel (and it's much worse movie adaptation.) Another favorite of mine is Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, Aka Blade Runner, which explores "What is being human?" 

What lesson do you think the Last Jedi is trying to teach and why? I'm not sure I take many lessons out of Star Wars, which has always been relatively shallow Space Fantasy (not science fiction.) Star Wars has some very broad underlying themes. (Authoritarianism is bad, Democracy is good.) The new movie had some badly shoehorned in social pontificating about "arms dealing" but that's hardly "social engineering" is it? 

I don't use the the word propaganda lightly, but this extreme force feeding of feminism and anti-male, anti-capitalism, anti-religion, social justice, was most definitely propaganda and social engineering, aka indoctrination. Whether you loved or hated this movie, you have to appreciate that scores of longtime Star Wars fans were nothing short of disgusted by this movie.

Yes, lots of movies have a message, and that's all fine and good, as long as that message is in-line with the story arc, but there was no basis for any of the crap that Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson insisted on shoving down the throats of audiences for the Last Jedi.

I have no issues with strong female characters. Princess Leia, in the original trilogy, was most definitely a strong female character. Katniss Everdeen in the Hunger Games is also another great example of a strong female character. Neither of those characters, or their movies, though had the underlying theme of "women rule and men drool."

Leia was smart and tough in the original trilogy and she was never made to look weak or incapable, but just about every single man in the Last Jedi was made out to be incompetent (Poe Damron), stupid (Finn), lazy and complacent (Luke)  or just evil (Kylo). There was not one single redeeming male in this movie.

The Last Jedi had a very clear connotation that women are superior to men - not equal - superior.

Here's an article on "The Women Who Run (More Accurately Ruin) Star Wars." There was most definitely an agenda at play in the Last Jedi...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/movies/star-wars-last-jedi-women-run-universe.html

To anyone who enjoyed this movie, I say that I'm glad you enjoyed it, but bear in mind that this movie also successfully alienated and outraged legions of longtime Star Wars fans who have basically written off the entire franchise (myself included) because of the embedded messaging of this movie.

Again, back to my original point...here we are in 2018 and the "Boy" Scouts of America is now open to girls despite a vast majority of scouts and scouters who are opposed to that...

Edited January 2, 2018 by SSF

[NJCubScouter]

Ok, Big Spoiler Alert for anyone who hasn't seen it.

SSF, it is obvious that you have strong feelings about this and there probably isn't any point in debating it with you, so I won't try.  We each see things "from a certain point of view," but it's not the same point.

I do want to take issue with your characterization of Luke, and I realize that I am probably in the minority among Star Wars fans on this.  Yes, for the vast majority of this movie he was a real downer, having basically given up on the galaxy and just living on his island catching fish and rejecting Rey's efforts to get him to return.  But in the end (did I mention SPOILER ALERT?  I'm going to scroll down a little...

 

...a little more...

 

...here we go...

 

In the end, when everything was on the line and he had the ultimate choice to make, he sacrificed himself for the greater good.  In my book, that was heroic.  That was admirable.  Yes, I suppose heroic males were difficult to find in this movie (do we count Chewie?), but at that moment, Luke made up for all of it.  Not that I think anyone needs to be keeping score between the men and the women anyway.  It's a movie.

[Sentinel947]

7 hours ago, SSF said:

I don't use the the word propaganda lightly, but this extreme force feeding of feminism and anti-male, anti-capitalism, anti-religion, social justice, was most definitely propaganda and social engineering, aka indoctrination. Whether you loved or hated this movie, you have to appreciate that scores of longtime Star Wars fans were nothing short of disgusted by this movie.

Yes, lots of movies have a message, and that's all fine and good, as long as that message is in-line with the story arc, but there was no basis for any of the crap that Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson insisted on shoving down the throats of audiences for the Last Jedi.

I have no issues with strong female characters. Princess Leia, in the original trilogy, was most definitely a strong female character. Katniss Everdeen in the Hunger Games is also another great example of a strong female character. Neither of those characters, or their movies, though had the underlying theme of "women rule and men drool."

Leia was smart and tough in the original trilogy and she was never made to look weak or incapable, but just about every single man in the Last Jedi was made out to be incompetent (Poe Damron), stupid (Finn), lazy and complacent (Luke)  or just evil (Kylo). There was not one single redeeming male in this movie.

The Last Jedi had a very clear connotation that women are superior to men - not equal - superior.

Here's an article on "The Women Who Run (More Accurately Ruin) Star Wars." There was most definitely an agenda at play in the Last Jedi...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/movies/star-wars-last-jedi-women-run-universe.html

To anyone who enjoyed this movie, I say that I'm glad you enjoyed it, but bear in mind that this movie also successfully alienated and outraged legions of longtime Star Wars fans who have basically written off the entire franchise (myself included) because of the embedded messaging of this movie.

Again, back to my original point...here we are in 2018 and the "Boy" Scouts of America is now open to girls despite a vast majority of scouts and scouters who are opposed to that...

So the agenda is to accurately represent women in movies, how subversive.... 

 

As for Girls Rule, Boy's Drool. That's been a television trope/ pop culture for a very long time. Just look at Everybody Loves Raymond, Family Guy and The Simpsons. It's even somewhat present in the original trilogy, with Leia, the smart dignified leader, vs Han, the unethical, shady, shoot first ask questions never criminal. 

Let's look at the characters in Last Jedi and examine "Girls rule, boys drool" 

Spoilers below

 

 

Rey: Luke refuses to teach her  because she does not resist the darkness when it calls to her. She goes into the cave of the dark side for selfish reasons, to seek her parents identity. She only finally resists the darkness when she realizes it's full of lies.  She then naively goes to Kylo Ren and tries to turn him based off a feeling. She's definitely a hero of the film, and a strong female lead (and I think Ridley is a fine actress) but her character is hardly perfect. She makes several mistakes. 

Vice Admiral Holdo: All heroism aside: She fails to communicate with her subordinates, which causes them to mutiny out of desperation. Cluing in her subordinates would have kept the Finn and Rose misadventure from happening. That's as much on Holdo as it is on Poe. 

Leia: She spents most of the movie in a coma, so I'm ignoring her. 

Luke: Overcomes his loss and fear to stall the First Orders advance and save the Rebellion. 

Yoda: Comes back at the perfect time to break Luke out of his fear and loss. 

Finn: Goes on a heroic suicide mission to save the Rebels from Snokes Star Destroyer and later the Siege Cannon, is stopped by the sappy love of Rose. This was the character who was trying to run away all of Episode 7 and the beginning of 8. 

Poe: Learns his lesson to not always rush into battle, uses his brains to realize their is an escape route out of the Mining complex, saving the rebellion, even after Leia has basically thrown in the towel.

In summary; many of the charters in Last Jedi are flawed characters who grow throughout the movie. It paid homage to bit's and pieces of the original trilogy without being a slave to those movies. You're free to disagree, but I think you're inserting the culture wars into something that really doesn't have it. 

I just saw the movie again tonight, I totally don't agree that the added influence of women is ruining Star Wars. A New Hope was influenced in a large way by Luca's first wife Marcia. http://www.syfy.co.uk/news/3-ways-which-marcia-lucas-helped-save-star-wars-0 
 

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Sentinel947