Star Wars: The Last Jedi and the Boy (Girl) Scouts of America

[RememberSchiff]

Sounds like my house. Eager to see the upcoming Black Panther movie.

My sons have learned not to mention a certain name around me, the destroyer of worlds - Star Trek and Star Wars. 

[SSF]

 I originally posted this to highlight the parallel between the backlash against the overt feminism and social justice propaganda in the Last Jedi to the backlash that the BSA has faced over opening its doors to girls.

In both cases, a small minority of individuals in power positions – who held divergent and extreme views, not shared by the vast majority of their respective constituents – managed to successfully force their views and agenda on their constituents; despite the fact that the vast majorities were strongly opposed to such.

Yes, there are those who support girls being able to join the Boy Scouts and there are those who feel that the Last Jedi was a good movie. However, the reality is that the vast majority of scouts and scouters do not believe that girls should be able to join the Boy Scouts and the vast majority of Star Wars fans and movie goers did not at all like the Last Jedi and strongly objected to the overt feminism and social justice themes.

The greater issue though is not the movie itself and how bad it was, or whether or not I personally liked it or not, but the fact that we live in a day and age in which the views and beliefs of the majority can be so quickly and easily destroyed by a small but powerful groups of individuals who appear to be very intent on imposing their will or agenda on the greater organization or franchise as a whole.

Some people may see all of this as “progress.” Others, myself included, see it as nothing more than overt political correctness.

What is the answer to all of this…? I don’t know, but as others have noted, I am planning to vote with my feet and my wallet.  

Also, just to confirm, Ms. Marvel is no more. She’s now the new “Captain Marvel,” and a much different character, than when she was Ms. Marvel. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by SSF

[Stosh]

Which only goes to re-emphasize the obvious.... people will do anything for money, including selling their souls.  There's a lesson to be had in secular moralism or lack thereof.

[Tampa Turtle]

I think these points are your opinions and not backed up by some data:

"the reality is that the vast majority of scouts and scouters do not believe that girls should be able to join the Boy Scouts" - vast majority? "vast" that is a pretty tall order. Other than the carping of myself and others where is your proof?

" the vast majority of Star Wars fans and movie goers did not at all like the Last Jedi and strongly objected to the overt feminism and social justice themes." Again, given the massive size of the box office and the repeat viewers this would be a controversy well covered in the media.
 

As for Ms Marvel/Captain Marvel they are different characters (there has always been a whole annoying family of Marvels) Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan) is the islamic one and Captain Marvel is some one named Carol something or other....I could be wrong but both titles and characters appear to be current. I am still waiting for the Matzo Woman-Ms Marvel semitic team up issue. Maybe they can share a nice Falafel. I love Falafels.

SSF I think you and I may agree on more issues than you think BUT the difference is I realize that while what I believe was once a majority opinion it is now a minority one. But my all means vote with your feet and wallet...corporations seem the most sensitive institutions to the will of the public these days. 

[Tampa Turtle]

7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Sounds like my house. Eager to see the upcoming Black Panther movie.

My sons have learned not to mention a certain name around me, the destroyer of worlds - Star Trek and Star Wars. 

My boys argued who was the better movie composer John Williams (Star Wars, Jurassic, etc)  vs Howard Shore (LOTR, etc). Much shouting, little blood, smart phones whipped out. Williams was grudgingly acknowledged by Oscar count. (I will be so glad when school starts gain).

[NJCubScouter]

35 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

"the reality is that the vast majority of scouts and scouters do not believe that girls should be able to join the Boy Scouts" - vast majority? "vast" that is a pretty tall order. Other than the carping of myself and others where is your proof?

I wonder the same thing.  In this forum it has been somewhere in the vicinity of 50-50, or perhaps a better guess would be something like 40% opposed, 35% in favor and 25% not sure/waiting-and-watching/no opinion.  Or the 40/35 could be the other way.  Among the Scouters I know in person, the most common reaction is a shrug of the shoulders as if to say, It is what it is.  I attended a portion of a Cub Scout RT session where this was being discussed and most of the leaders seemed to have gotten past the yes-or-no stage and were mainly interested in getting more information about what they were supposed to do now.  If I were to take a vote among my relatives (including my Eagle-brother and Eagle-son) it would probably be a majority in favor.  I myself was not in favor of this, and I don't think National is handling the transition very well, but now that it is going to happen I guess I am at the ok-what-do-we-do-now stage.

[Frostbyte]

I know in our council, informally at the last roundtable, I would have to say it was about 50-50 on this change, and I am in a fairly conservative state. I was a bit surprised by that, as I expected a much more negative reaction, but I was happy to see it. As a father of two sons and two daughters, I embrace this change. Whether my girls choose to be in the program, I would like them to have an opportunity to experience the fun times I have had with my sons in Scouting and learn the leadership and skills my sons learned. 

I don't at all consider that there is some vast conspiracy of the minority opinion to force it's way on this. The "vast majority" statements are not valid without some proof. And even then they will smack of Argumentum ad populum. Just because a majority agree on something does not make it the right thing to do. Majority rule is all fun and good until 5 wolves and 4 sheep are trying to decide what to eat for lunch. Sometimes you do the right thing in spite of the majority.

I think the fear of change drives more of this type of conversation than the reality that will prove out over time. 

[NJCubScouter]

8 minutes ago, Frostbyte said:

Majority rule is all fun and good until 5 wolves and 4 sheep are trying to decide what to eat for lunch.

   The version I have heard is four wolves and one sheep voting on dinner, but the idea is the same.

[Frostbyte]

 I heard one of the wolves had a hook instead of a paw!

[The Latin Scot]

It's funny how many people want to claim that "real" Star Wars fans hated the film, yet no matter how much they pout, the numbers clearly show that the VAST majority of people loved it. 

I can easily claim to be one of the biggest Star Wars fans on this forum; no far I haven't seen anybody here who can even approach the devotion and love I have for the films (look into my costume and memorabilia collection if you have any doubts). 

But I will say this - The Last Jedi is an artful, beautiful movie, powerful in its messages, heart-breaking in its action, and deeply moving in its implications and morality. I was floored by how much I loved it, even though it was both imperfect and disappointing in some of the directions it took. But why would I let a few directorial choices ruin a perfectly good movie for me? 

People just like to hate stuff because others don't do things they way they would have. But that's life - it doesn't always take the course we wish it would. But why should we let that spoil the fun for us while we're living it? 

[SSF]

3 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I think these points are your opinions and not backed up by some data:

"the reality is that the vast majority of scouts and scouters do not believe that girls should be able to join the Boy Scouts" - vast majority? "vast" that is a pretty tall order. Other than the carping of myself and others where is your proof?

" the vast majority of Star Wars fans and movie goers did not at all like the Last Jedi and strongly objected to the overt feminism and social justice themes." Again, given the massive size of the box office and the repeat viewers this would be a controversy well covered in the media.
 

As for Ms Marvel/Captain Marvel they are different characters (there has always been a whole annoying family of Marvels) Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan) is the islamic one and Captain Marvel is some one named Carol something or other....I could be wrong but both titles and characters appear to be current. I am still waiting for the Matzo Woman-Ms Marvel semitic team up issue. Maybe they can share a nice Falafel. I love Falafels.

SSF I think you and I may agree on more issues than you think BUT the difference is I realize that while what I believe was once a majority opinion it is now a minority one. But my all means vote with your feet and wallet...corporations seem the most sensitive institutions to the will of the public these days. 

Fair enough about wanting to see evidence. Let's be realistic and honest though...Americans are not onboard and do not fully support the idea of girls joining the Boy Scouts. This was very much pushed through by Surbaugh with the intent of getting it done quickly and quietly.

Practically overnight, the BSA went from "we're just considering this" to "welcome girls!"

I have no doubt that a lot of people are afraid to share their true feelings for fear of being labeled a misogynist or being ostracized in some way.

The BSA, and Boy Scout leaders in particular, have a long bad history of choosing to look the other way when something isn't right.

Last Jedi has been a huge box office success, as I noted in my original post. but that does not make it a good movie . Profitable yes, good no. People saw this based on hype and the Star Wars brand. The story itself was poorly written, too many sublots, too many holes...sorry, it was a badly written movie with too much ideological preaching about the glory and brilliance of women. 

Again, if you liked the movie, that's great but you're in the minority. Check out Rotten Tomatoes, IMDd, Fandangp, Youtube...fans are seething over this movie. Come on...let's not pretend that this movie was well received. 

Yeah, I forgot about the new Islamic Ms. Marvel. Carol Danvers was the original Ms. Marvel and they made her into the new Captain Marvel. Mar-Vell was the original Captain Marvel, back in the day. They killed him off and apparently have no plans of ever bringing him back, I'm presuming.  So we now have the new female Captain Marvel, in place of the original male Captain Marvel. 

[Eagle94-A1]

I would love for BSA to publish the actual stats of those members and volunteers lucky enough to take the survey, and not just the info from non-member surveys. If anyone could point me towards the actual member results I'd appreciate it. I keep finding the non-member results.

 

And as someone else stated, BSA has a history of ignoring those of us in the field. After all, 94% of those surveyed thought BSA needed to keep the 3 months for Eagle Palms, and they ignored the near unanimous result, and decided on 'Insta Palms"

[SSF]

3 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I wonder the same thing.  In this forum it has been somewhere in the vicinity of 50-50, or perhaps a better guess would be something like 40% opposed, 35% in favor and 25% not sure/waiting-and-watching/no opinion.  Or the 40/35 could be the other way.  Among the Scouters I know in person, the most common reaction is a shrug of the shoulders as if to say, It is what it is.  I attended a portion of a Cub Scout RT session where this was being discussed and most of the leaders seemed to have gotten past the yes-or-no stage and were mainly interested in getting more information about what they were supposed to do now.  If I were to take a vote among my relatives (including my Eagle-brother and Eagle-son) it would probably be a majority in favor.  I myself was not in favor of this, and I don't think National is handling the transition very well, but now that it is going to happen I guess I am at the ok-what-do-we-do-now stage.

Yeah, I remember that poll on this site...again though, let's be honest, the idea of girls in the Boy Scouts has not been well received.

For my one vote, I'm an Eagle and I think girls in Boy Scouts is absurd. 

Complacency is a big problem, IMHO, among scouters in the BSA. All too often, they're willing to just look the other way or do nothing. When people sit by and let the special interest proponents do whatever they want, we end up with girls in the Boy Scouts...

[Stosh]

Whether the movie goers liked the movie is irrelevant, they paid for a ticket and as far as the movie industry is concerned, that's all that counts.

[NJCubScouter]

1 hour ago, SSF said:

Yeah, I remember that poll on this site...again though, let's be honest, the idea of girls in the Boy Scouts has not been well received.

I wasn’t talking about a poll.  I was giving my perception of how members of this forum feel about the subject based on the many posts on the subject.  And I’m not talking about the number of posts, I’m talking about the number of people. I’m not claiming it’s a scientific approach. It’s just based on my observations.  My conclusion from those observations is that there has been a mixed reaction.