Webelos Transition to Troops

[an_old_DC]

The first line of BSA's position description says it all. 

 

Everything that the Cubmaster does is aimed at helping the individual boy.

 

 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Is Mr. Smith being disloyal to the pack's (and Troop 1's) CO?  Should he be "fired" as a DL for his younger son's den?

I don't think Mr. Smith is being disloyal. His son chose the troop. 

My unit has a policy against its leaders holding more than one scouter position at a time. This would be true regardless of whether the second position is with our unit, another CO's unit, district, or council. I wouldn't characterize this as "firing' the leader. We would ask him to choose.

There would be an odd wrinkle to this hypothetical situation if the scouter happened to also be a teacher at my school. The diocese requires Catholic school teachers to send their children to a Catholic school. I don't know if they would also expect the teacher to choose the Catholic school's scout unit for his son. It's possible. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by David CO

[NJCubScouter]

26 minutes ago, David CO said:

I don't think Mr. Smith is being disloyal. His son chose the troop. 

If it isn't already clear, I agree with that.

26 minutes ago, David CO said:

My unit has a policy against its leaders holding more than one scouter position at a time. This would be true regardless of whether the second position is with our unit, another CO's unit, district, or council. I wouldn't characterize this as "firing' the leader. We would ask him to choose.

I don't want to send Cubber's thread off on a tangent about CO policies toward adult leaders.  But wow.  So if your CO has a pack and a troop, and Mr. Smith has a boy in both, he can't be a leader in both.  I've never heard of that.

 

[David CO]

20 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

 

I don't want to send Cubber's thread off on a tangent about CO policies toward adult leaders.  But wow.  So if your CO has a pack and a troop, and Mr. Smith has a boy in both, he can't be a leader in both.  I've never heard of that.

 

You need to understand that my CO is the Athletic Department of a school. The policy was originally designed for coaches. We didn't want people coaching two teams in the same season. If we applied your hypothetical, Mr. Smith would not be allowed to coach an older daughter's 8th grade volleyball team while coaching the 6th grade boy's basketball team.

The policy was written to apply to all extra-curricular activities, including scouting, so no one would feel that they were being singled out. 

A CO's policies may not always seem to make much sense if you look at them in isolation, narrowing your focus on the unit or the individual scout. The reasons may become more clear if you look at the bigger picture. 

The CO owns the scout unit. It is reasonable for the CO to expect the unit to fit in with its overall policies, objectives, and goals.

Edited December 22, 2017 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

BSA has a policy against an adult holding more than one position in a unit.  One rationale, an adult becoming over-committed, certainly applies to a second job outside the unit.  Since a unit has the right to determine who is a Scouter registered in that unit, it may have a policy such as David describes if enforced by ending the Scouter's position in David's unit.

That policy, applied by all units, would fairly well wipe out my district's Merit Badge Counselor list, empty most District Committee slots, eliminate most Summer Camp adult volunteers, and make our shortage of Unit Commissioners worse.  

[David CO]

6 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Troop 2 is also nearby, has 50 kids with a good mix of Scouts all up and down the age/rank range and a full staff of leaders, uses the patrol method, no merit badge classes, everything by the book.  The hypothetical "perfect troop."  

Since you didn't say if troop 2 has an strong and active CO, I have no way of knowing if it is a hypothetical perfect troop.

[David CO]

 

42 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

That policy, applied by all units, would fairly well wipe out my district's Merit Badge Counselor list, empty most District Committee slots, eliminate most Summer Camp adult volunteers, and make our shortage of Unit Commissioners worse.  

OK. Now what's the downside?

[TAHAWK]

Some of those still around.

[David CO]

10 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

The first line of BSA's position description says it all. 

 

Everything that the Cubmaster does is aimed at helping the individual boy.

 

 

That statement does not mean a Cubmaster can do anything he wants, just so long as his aim is to help the boys.

For example, he still has to obey federal, state, and local laws. Nothing in that statement relieves the CM of his civic responsibilities.

He is still a volunteer for the CO. Nothing in that statement confers ownership of the unit, or any part of the unit, from the CO to the CM.

He is still subordinate to the COR. Nothing in that statement changes the chain of command.

It is a nice statement, but it does not say it all. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by David CO

[an_old_DC]

Ok, if you want to get granular, the entire position description reads:

 

Everything that the Cubmaster does is aimed at helping the individual boy.

Qualifications: Is at least 21 years old and is registered as an adult leader of the BSA. Should be a leader who is able to communicate well with adults as well as boys. Should be able to delegate responsibilities and set a good example through behavior, attitude, and uniform. Preferably a member of the chartered organization.

Responsibilities: The Cubmaster's responsibilities are to: 

Complete Cubmaster Fast Start training and leader position-specific training. Attend monthly roundtables.

Plan and help carry out the Cub Scout program in the pack according to the policies of the BSA. This includes leading the monthly pack meeting, with the help of other leaders.

With the pack committee, develop and execute a year-round recruitment plan for recruiting boys into Cub Scouting.

Know about and use the appropriate and available literature, including the Den & Pack Meeting Resource Guide, the Webelos Leader Guide, and this resource.

See that the pack program, leaders, and Cub Scouts positively reflect the interests and objectives of the chartered organization and the BSA.

Work with the pack committee on program ideas, selecting and recruiting adult leaders, and establishing a budget plan.

Guide and support den leaders. See that they receive the required training for their positions.

Help organize and encourage graduation into a Boy Scout troop by establishing and maintaining good relationships with Boy Scout troops.

Maintain good relationships with parents and guardians. Seek their support and include them in activities.

See that Cub Scouts receive a quality, year-round program filled with fun and activities that qualify the dens and pack for the National Summertime Pack Award.

See that the responsibilities specified for the assistant Cubmaster are carried out.

Help the pack committee chair conduct the annual pack program planning conference and the monthly pack leaders’ meetings.

Work as a team with the pack committee chair to cultivate, educate, and motivate all pack leaders and parents or guardians in Cub Scouting.

Take part in the charter review meeting and annual charter presentation ceremony.

Request den chiefs for all Cub Scout dens and, after selection, see that they are trained.

Recognize the den chiefs at pack meetings.

Conduct impressive advancement, recognition, and graduation ceremonies. For Webelos ceremonies, involve Scoutmasters and other Boy Scout leaders.

Meet with the unit commissioner, Webelos den leader, and Scoutmaster to establish plans for the Webelos Scouts’ transition to Boy Scouting.

Encourage high advancement standards from all Cub Scouts.

Help bring families together at joint activities for Webelos dens (or packs) and Boy Scout troops.

Support the policies of the BSA.

note that the description, while stating “See that the pack program, leaders, and Cub Scouts positively reflect the interests and objectives of the chartered organization and the BSA,” also includes “Help organize and encourage graduation into a Boy Scout troop by establishing and maintaining good relationships with Boy Scout troops,” [note, plural troops], as well as “Meet with the unit commissioner, Webelos den leader, and Scoutmaster to establish plans for the Webelos Scouts’ transition to Boy Scouting.”

Edited December 23, 2017 by an_old_DC

[Eagle94-A1]

12 hours ago, David CO said:

 

OK. Now what's the downside?

It hurts the Scouts. No MBCs who know what they are doing so the Scouts could work with. Grant you, I can count on two hands the number of times I've been contacted to work on a MB outside of summer camp or a MBU in the past 25 years. But my son has had to contact MBCs, and they were all unit leaders too.

In my neck of the woods, the Cub program was under a micromanager who ran off anyone willing to help. We are slowly recovering. Everyone involved with district level Cub programs is a unit leader,whether Cub Scout or Boy Scout: Cubmobile (Cub Scout Leader), Pinewood Derby and Webeloree (Boy Scouters), Day Camp (mix of both).

While I wish we had enough volunteers so I can relinquish my district hats, we don't. heck the DE is panicking b/c I've been doing both RTs for 2 years now, and I tenderd my resignation effective May 3rd.

[HelpfulTracks]

10 hours ago, David CO said:

He is still subordinate to the COR. Nothing in that statement changes the chain of command.

I guess this is where I have an issue with your train of thought. These are volunteers, not employees. While technically they are subordinates, I have always viewed the Key 3 as well as the CO as a team, each with areas of responsibility and authority.

I have witnessed programs severely weakened, to the point of ending a some cases, due the desire for control over a program, by COR, SM, and CC’s. Rather than work together, even when they disagree, they often work behind someone’s back or attempt to dictate their vision.

In any organization; be it volunteer, business or military, when those with authority begin to micromanage, bad things happen. Certainly hold them accountable, to clearly defined goals, but let them do their job without interference.

One would hope that the CO has a benevolent attitude where helping the youth is its first priority. If the ones running the program, then leave them alone.

[perdidochas]

On 12/20/2017 at 4:35 PM, Cubber said:

I'm not sure if anyone is still following this thread, but I talk with the CC/COR today. For those questioning my level of respect or loyalty- please stop. It's there and he knows that.

Basically, I think he is attached to the very long continuous scouting history of this Troop and does not want to let the charter lapse and start back at zero.  So he is working to covert the many leads he has received from council this year into real scouts, and also get a few of the older scouts to reengage with the Troop and breathe some life into it. He has many experienced scouters to act as leaders should this take off. He realizes it is a long shot, but wants his last six months the council has given him to at least try.

To understand how it got here: 10 years ago there was an upset between him and the CC and CM of this pack I'm in now. They parted ways and that CM/committee took most of the cubs with them to start a new pack. They then continued to recruit the others away and hold preemptive recruiting events for new Tigers each year. It starved the CO programs of new cubs and eventually there were no more Webelos transitioning into the troop. This went on for many years. 

That explains why they only had 5 cubs when I joined. I've built it to 32, so the pack is healthy now.  But this is our first year with Webelos, and they are all first years. No second years for him. The Troop unfortunately could not wait for the feed to begin again. The last boys have Eagled and are leaving for college in the spring. 

I told him that all the pack leaders need to understand his strategy with this troop and how he wants us to support it. He has not explained that to us. We want to support him, but we need him to tell us what we are supporting and how we can help him. And he has to be realistic about how tough it is going to be to sell parents on a start up. He knows. It was a good conversation.

Hope this answers some questions and thank you all again for your guidance.

-B

So basically, the Troop has been on it's deathbed for about 4 or 5 years, minimum.  As I said in my comments last week, the CO is picking the wrong time to try to build a troop back.  That should have been done at least  3 years ago.  

[perdidochas]

On 12/21/2017 at 2:59 PM, David CO said:

The CC/COR cannot mandate where individual Webelos go, but they can mandate where a Webelos den does or doesn't go. 

  I totally agree that the CC can expect the WDL to visit the CO's troop, if there were a troop.  Can't visit a non-existent Troop.    It's sort of a catch-22.  The WDL cannot sign off on visiting a Troop if there is no Troop.