Webelos Transition to Troops

[Jameson76]

2 minutes ago, Cubber said:

I didn't know that. I wonder how he managed that. Boys can be registered in more than one troop, right? Does that count toward the five?

They can be registered in more than one UNIT, like a Boy Scout can be also registered as a Venture and or Explorer, and vice versa.  Not multiple troops.  I think a youth can (could) be registered in multiple explorer posts, especially with the career interest ones.  Back in the day I had a youth that was in my troop, then in my High Adventure post, and also he was active with the local police explorer post.  One fee I believe.

[David CO]

23 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

They had to have had some paper scouts, you need to have a minimum of five paid youth

True. The troop couldn't have rechartered last year with only 2 registered scouts. The paper scouts might have aged out.

11 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

That's a good point.  Games have already been played with this troop's charter.

Obviously. 

[Cubber]

Just now, Jameson76 said:

They can be registered in more than one UNIT, like a Boy Scout can be also registered as a Venture and or Explorer, and vice versa.  Not multiple troops.

Ah. Well maybe he was just keeping scouts that have moved on in the past on his roster.

 

[NJCubScouter]

10 minutes ago, Cubber said:

I didn't know that. I wonder how he managed that. Boys can be registered in more than one troop, right? Does that count toward the five?

One way they might have managed it is to continue to re-register Scouts who have quit the troop, but are still under 18, with the troop or CO paying the registration fees.  I have heard of people doing that for one year, but not three.  And there are other ways to do it, which are less "trustworthy."  As long as the registration fees are coming in, most councils don't really care very much.

 

[Jameson76]

10 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

One way they might have managed it is to continue to re-register Scouts who have quit the troop, but are still under 18, with the troop or CO paying the registration fees.  I have heard of people doing that for one year, but not three.  And there are other ways to do it, which are less "trustworthy."  As long as the registration fees are coming in, most councils don't really care very much.

 

That is a way, maybe the COR went full Chicago and is registering scouts with names from the local graveyard (if that reference is lost try to research BSA membership scandals during the Boy Power era of the 70's).  If that has been ongoing then maybe Cubber has more issues to review.  This seems like a CO and a COR sort of hanging on to a unit "hoping" it will start up again.  It is hard work to keep a unit active, keep the scouts engaged, keep the troop viable.

Every troop has scouts leaving for a variety of reasons; friends have left, girlfriends, sports, academics, cars, etc etc.  As we tell our youth leadership, every outing and meeting is recruiting.  You have to keep the new scouts (and really all scouts) engaged and active, otherwise there is not next group of scouts for the troop.

[David CO]

7 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

And there are other ways to do it, which are less "trustworthy."  As long as the registration fees are coming in, most councils don't really care very much.

Funny you should mention that. I actually started my unit by registering a bunch of my Lone Scout friends in my troop. The council did have a few raised eyebrows when they observed that some of my scouts lived hundreds of miles away, but they let it slide.

I never intended to use paper scouts as a long term solution. I was just priming the pump. 

[David CO]

10 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I didn't mean what I think you think I meant.  Of course the CO does not want the unit to lapse.  I was responding to a couple of people who seemed to think that recruitment was a waste of time because the charter is about to expire or has already expired. What I was saying is that I think the CO can work with the council to keep the charter from lapsing while awaiting at least 5 crossovers, and as the worst-case scenario, the charter could be "revived" quickly enough.  That being the case, the biggest issue remains recruitment.

I disagree. The biggest issue is leadership. How can a CO recruit new boy scouts when its own registered leadership is unwilling to support the unit.

 

[TAHAWK]

Happens all the time.  I have had CO representative (NOT CORs - they said they had none) come to recharter night to explain that they would not sign the recharter papers.  We then had to find some other organization to not simply provide a meeting place but also act as an actual CO.   The institutions explained that they thought they were doing enough - a good deed - by providing a meeting place and saw no reason to commit to more. 

One non-CO CO was  a Buiddhist temple that had purchased the building of a dying congregation and had been asked by the previous COH to " let the troop keep meeting."  They were nice enough to do that and apparently did not read what they signed the first time around, much less understand it.  The next year they did read, refused, to sign, and dropped out of the picture.  The troop had doubled in size during the year becasue it had excellent uniformed leadership who offered a great outdoor program for the Scouts, including advanced program for the older Scouts.

The other troop had added boys but lost one more, for a net -1.

Active COs are as it should be, but hardly the overwhelming state of things.  Benign neglect is the typical order of the day.  Sad.

[Eagle94-A1]

17 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

That is a way, maybe the COR went full Chicago and is registering scouts with names from the local graveyard (if that reference is lost try to research BSA membership scandals during the Boy Power era of the 70's). 

 

Sadly this is something I saw still being done in the late 1990s. One of the reasons I quit as a pro, I refused to do it. When I left, my district "lost" a large portion of it's members.  Sometimes I wish I would have waited to quit. We got a new SE and he cleaned house.

[Jameson76]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Sadly this is something I saw still being done in the late 1990s. One of the reasons I quit as a pro, I refused to do it. When I left, my district "lost" a large portion of it's members.  Sometimes I wish I would have waited to quit. We got a new SE and he cleaned house.

Still occurring in the 2004 and 2005.  Especially with units designed to served underprivileged youth. 

From a 2005 article on the FBI investigations - "In Dallas, former council employees say the Scout count was inflated 20 to 30 percent. In Birmingham, some believe the numbers were hyped 30 to 40 percent. In Atlanta, a local civil rights leader accuses the Boy Scouts of inflating their inner city membership by thousands"

 

[qwazse]

14 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Still occurring in the 2004 and 2005.  Especially with units designed to served underprivileged youth. 

From a 2005 article on the FBI investigations - "In Dallas, former council employees say the Scout count was inflated 20 to 30 percent. In Birmingham, some believe the numbers were hyped 30 to 40 percent. In Atlanta, a local civil rights leader accuses the Boy Scouts of inflating their inner city membership by thousands"

It was about '06 or '07 that we on our council venturing committee told our DE to stop giving us lists of "paper crews." It was obvious based on who was in the room at the time that our effective membership was a fraction of the number council bragged about. @Cubber's situation comes as no surprise to me. A DE will prop up the charter of troop until no more fees come in. IMHO, that only extends the pain.

On the other hand, moving a den full of boys into a troop where they are the majority stakeholders is not a bad gig. The question to ask is what is the leadership? If you have two boys who are good leaders, a couple of adults serious about training, a UC who would be a good coach for the adults, and a CO that really cares and gives a unit the space they need, there's plenty of reason to give it a try.

[Tampa Turtle]

Hearing about all this again is just so depressing.

I know our unit used to renew the charters for some AWOL boys rather than purge the rolls every year because some of them are kinda half in and half out when they are in High School and half in is better than all out. We do that a lot less now because we have less funds to spare. We might keep a guy on an extra year unless we hear from the parents they are definitely out for good and place them in a 'Limbo Patrol' or something on a roster. So I guess the intent their is not to cheat.

[David CO]

8 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Active COs are as it should be, but hardly the overwhelming state of things.  Benign neglect is the typical order of the day.  Sad.

That's why I feel so strongly about scouters showing some respect to the active CO's who are trying to do it right. They should be put up as an example to emulate, not as a target to attack.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

43 minutes ago, David CO said:

That's why I feel so strongly about scouters showing some respect to the active CO's who are trying to do it right. They should be put up as an example to emulate, not as a target to attack.

 

Please do not take offense, as it is not meant as a criticism of you.

Let's face it, active CORs are so rare, that most people do not know anything about the role. Heck, I was a trained ASM and sitting on the district committee, and I didn't know anything about the position, except you had to have one in order to recharter. It wasn't until  I was a DE, 3 years after joining a district committee, and was in DE school that I learned of the responsibilities it entailed. So most folks do not understand that ultimately the COR is responsible for Scouting at the CO, and htey sit on both the district and council committees with full voting rights. Because they are not seen or involved in the program, many people will view the uninvolved COR as uninformed and interfering when they finally start doing their job.

And sometimes even CORs do not understand their role and responsibilities. We had a pack in deep trouble, and it was all adult leadership caused. It was affecting not only the Cubs who dropped, but also the troop since they were getting no Scouts. I and my boss had a meeting with the COR to discuss the matter and offer suggestions. THEY DID NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED!  (emphasis). The COR was duel registered as an ASM with the troop, knew exactly what the problem was, knew he had the ability to fix it, but viewed it as a Cub Scout pack problem for them to solve, not him. So the problem continued for several years. And how many CORs get involved at the district and council levels/ I know neither my pack's COR nor my troop's COR attend either of those meetings.

 

[David CO]

22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Please do not take offense, as it is not meant as a criticism of you.

Let's face it, active CORs are so rare, that most people do not know anything about the role. Heck, I was a trained ASM and sitting on the district committee, and I didn't know anything about the position, except you had to have one in order to recharter. It wasn't until  I was a DE, 3 years after joining a district committee, and was in DE school that I learned of the responsibilities it entailed. So most folks do not understand that ultimately the COR is responsible for Scouting at the CO, and they sit on both the district and council committees with full voting rights. 

No offense taken. You said it exactly right.

I came on this forum nine years ago precisely because of this. Most unit scouters don't seem to understand the proper role of the CO and its representatives, the IH and COR. By adding my voice to the discussions, I had hoped to make scouters more aware of our existence and of our important role in scouting.