Webelos Transition to Troops

[numbersnerd]

To echo that, troop choices do shift over time. Our pack had the same situation: most, if not all, Webelos went to a troop that had long been the destination for Webelos. Then there was a small splinter to another troop, and the same the next year. By the time our group got to that point, their visits made it clear: the de facto troop was not only facing competition, it was eliminated entirely from consideration. Every Webelos said, "No way", and preferred the troop that had been getting small numbers from our pack. The entire AOL patrol went to one troop together. The next round was similar, with only one boy not going, but instead joining the troop chartered by their church. But in all cases, the boys made their own decisions. The destinations morph and change, just like kid fads. Pokemon, fidget spinners, and ...next gimmick?

[David CO]

3 hours ago, Cubber said:

We are very fortunate to have several troops inviting us for visits with their troops.

If by saying us, you are talking about individual scouts visiting other troops on their own (not as a Webelos den), then I don't see any problem. 

If you are thinking of using the funds, equipment, and volunteers of your Chartered Organization to recruit for some other CO's unit, then I would say that such an action would be highly unethical. 

 

[HelpfulTracks]

3 hours ago, Cubber said:

My question is: does the committee chair have the right to direct us to transition to a particular troop, especially if it has no boys in it? Has anyone else run into this resistance to allowing Webelos to check out multiple troops to find their right fit?

To Direct where the you go? Absolutely not.

To ask that you consider a troop? Sure.

But the Scout needs to go where the Scout fits best. We tell that to every Webelos that visits our troop. I would much rather see a Webelos become a Scout in another troop than to drop out of Scouting because of a poor fit. Maybe joining a brand new troop would be a good opportunity for him if he wants to be a part of building something new, maybe it would not be good for him.

At the end of the day what we owe the youth outweighs what a CC wants, what a CO thinks it is owed or what any Scoutmaster thinks. It is about how to best serve the youth, not how they youth can best serve someone else.

[numbersnerd]

40 minutes ago, David CO said:

If by saying us, you are talking about individual scouts visiting other troops on their own (not as a Webelos den), then I don't see any problem. 

If you are thinking of using the funds, equipment, and volunteers of your Chartered Organization to recruit for some other CO's unit, then I would say that such an action would be highly unethical. 

 

There IS a difference between a) advocating for a particular unit and b) restricting choices to one unit. Just as it would be if the CM or DL didn't give the CO's troop an opportunity to make their recruiting pitch to the boys. Either way, placing that kind of limitation on it is just plain wrong.

But think about this: if the troop has no scouts and the Scouting adventure requires a visit to a troop meeting, how is that accomplished? And yes, the troop visit, in addition to the adventure requirement, is a recruiting opportunity. Usually the entire den goes together to work on the requirement, but your interpretation would lead one to think it is not allowable. Would you really be supportive of that kind of restriction on activities?  Yes, they could do it individually, but making it unnecessarily difficult runs counter to scouting ideals.

What's been unasked so far is: why the troop got down to two scouts that simultaneously aged out/quit/whatever. That's a big question that would have to be answered to satisfaction before any family would give even slight consideration to joining the troop. But I have to say, after surviving the Cub program, most parents want and need a break, not the burden of starting up a new unit.

[David CO]

5 minutes ago, numbersnerd said:

Would you really be supportive of that kind of restriction on activities?  Yes, they could do it individually, but making it unnecessarily difficult runs counter to scouting ideals.

Absolutely, I would. Other units have the right to recruit from our unit, but we are under no obligation to provide them with the funds, equipment, volunteers, or access to meeting space to do it in. They're on their own.

I don't think this runs counter to scouting ideals. 

[numbersnerd]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

Absolutely, I would. Other units have the right to recruit from our unit, but we are under no obligation to provide them with the funds, equipment, volunteers, or access to meeting space to do it in. They're on their own.

I don't think this runs counter to scouting ideals. 

I guess if you're talking about using resources such as money and equipment, you might have a point. But volunteers? Like the leaders? It just comes off as as petty if you would tell a DL he can't take the den, as a DL, to another CO's troop meeting. Which is what it sounds like the OP's original question was about. So it appears we have some differing opinions on that.

[Eagle94-A1]

One things to remember about @David CO, he is a COR who is actually doing his job. I bet if there are problems between the pack and troop, he's doing his job and getting them ironed out.

 

Sadly most of us are dealing with COs who are paper only. They provide us the minimum, meeting room and storage, and have a hands off approach. I know my pack's CO has no interest in Scouting. We've invited IH, COR, CC, etc to Blue and Golds, Cross Overs, etc and never attended. The troop at the CO scheduled an Eagle COH three months in advance with the church to make sure they could have the facilities, and it was approved. The a week before the Eagle COH, they said the troop need to cancel the COH b/c they needed the facility for something else. Luckily the troop that host the OA, opened up their facilities with open arms

 

[NJCubScouter]

6 hours ago, numbersnerd said:

But I have to say, after surviving the Cub program, most parents want and need a break, not the burden of starting up a new unit.

I have seen that, and I would extend it to troops that have had trouble recruiting in the recent past.  Parents (and to a somewhat lesser extent, their sons) spot the fact that a troop isn't all that large and that there are "gaps" in the ages of the Scouts, and they leap to the conclusion that there is something "wrong" with the troop, as compared with the next-closest troop that has (say) 8 full-size patrols and seems to be humming along like a well-oiled machine.  (Even if it is a little TOO well-oiled.)

The one exception that I have seen was when the then-Cubmaster of my son's pack (this is about 18 years ago) decided he was going to form a new troop, with himself as Scoutmaster, with the first patrol being the Webelos 2 den that included his son.  I think he got 6 out of 7 families on board, recruited parents to fill the mandatory positions needed for the charter, actually got the charter (with the pack's CO also being the CO for the troop), lined up a nearby troop (but not too nearby) to be the "mentor" troop for the first year or two and invite the one-patrol troop on their camping trips until the new troop had had another year or two of recruitment, and talked up the idea among parents of younger Cubs (like me; my son would have been in the fourth "class" in that troop) who would eventually be able to cross over to an "established" troop in their own neighborhood.  So the crossover happened... and then nothing else happened.  I think the CM got busy with other things, never got around to having the troop's first meeting, apparently none of the parents of the on-paper troop stepped forward to help him, several months passed, and I have always suspected that the CM's son, having gotten bored waiting, told his father he did not want to be a Boy Scout after all.  And that was that.  I think the DE arranged for the "troop" to be re-chartered for a second year in hopes that something might happen, but it never did.  It was a real shame because none of those 6 boys ever became Boy Scouts - apparently they all eventually lost interest and did not look at other troops.  (The one exception was always going to join the troop that his big brother was in, and he made Eagle in that troop, which is the same troop my son joined and of which I am still a committee member.)

Edited December 19, 2017 by NJCubScouter
Cubmaster should be Scoutmaster

[numbersnerd]

54 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One things to remember about @David CO, he is a COR who is actually doing his job. 

 

Oh, I get that. It just that his stance, like the one the OP is getting, appears to be more about protecting turf than serving the best interests of the boys. 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, numbersnerd said:

It just comes off as as petty if you would tell a DL he can't take the den, as a DL, to another CO's troop meeting. 

That would be like Macy's sending Christmas shoppers to Gimbel's. What kind of crazy person would do that?

[David CO]

1 hour ago, numbersnerd said:

Oh, I get that. It just that his stance, like the one the OP is getting, appears to be more about protecting turf than serving the best interests of the boys. 

The OP asked us if the CC had the right to do it. The only responsible answer is an unqualified yes. The Chartered Organization, through its chain of command from IH to COR to CC, does have that right. I wouldn't want to get a scout leader into hot water by giving him false information, and having him act on it. That is not helpful.

If the COR or CC had posted on this forum asking our opinions on what he should do, I may have given them a slightly different answer.

My stance, as always, is that the Chartered Organization owns the unit. Yes, that is the turf I protect.

Edited December 19, 2017 by David CO

[CalicoPenn]

32 minutes ago, David CO said:

That would be like Macy's sending Christmas shoppers to Gimbel's. What kind of crazy person would do that?

RH Macy would and the Gimbel brothers would.  They used to send people to other stores all the time if they didn't have something.  It may seem counter-intuitive but since customer service is the number one reason people have loyalty to stores, it makes perfect sense.   Want to really impress a customer when you don't have something in stock that they need?  Call a competitor to see if they have it in stock and then ask them to put it on hold for your customer.  Yes - you might lose a single sale, but that customer is coming back.

[CalicoPenn]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

Yes. As a cub master,  you volunteered to support the scouting program of the Chartered Organization. It is not unreasonable for your CO to expect you to promote both of their registered units. You should agree to speak up for the troop.

I am not saying that you should lie to the scouts or their parents. Be truthful. Tell them that it is their choice, but leave no doubt in anyone's mind that you volunteer for and support the CO's units.

 

 

I get where you're coming from but I think you have the right answer to the wrong question.

If the question was does the committee (chair) have the right to tell the den leader to promote the sponsors troop, then yes, I fully agree with you.

But that is not the question being asked.  The questioned being asked is does the Committee Chair (or Chartering Organizatoin) have the right to tell the parents what Troop they MUST transition to and the answer to that must always be no.  They can encourage it, they can try to force it by banning den visits to other units, but they cannot tell Parents (and their sons) what Troop they are allowed to join on crossing over.  If they want to throw a fit and not do a crossover ceremony for any Webelos not joining the sponsored Troop, they can do that too.  But they can not tell a parent or a Scout that they can't join any other Troop.

[David CO]

3 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

I get where you're coming from but I think you have the right answer to the wrong question.

You could be right. I wasn't entirely sure of the question. Who is us, the leaders or the parents? I took my best guess.

[numbersnerd]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

That would be like Macy's sending Christmas shoppers to Gimbel's. What kind of crazy person would do that?