Col. Flagg Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said: I have not seen any article saying that she is trying to get "credit" for anything. What the article linked at the beginning of this thread says is that she is asking to be able to join now rather than when the new program goes into effect because the time period in between is the difference between her having a shot at making Eagle before she turns 18, and not. And that's not asking for special treatment? BSA has already said it will be 2019. Asking to get in earlier *IS* asking for special permission, an exception, special consideration. I'd like to do my BOR from 1981. It was the only thing I didn't do for Eagle. Can I ask for special consideration? I know a handful of Life Scouts that were too involved in high school stuff to complete a few requirements toward Eagle, can they ask for special consideration? BSA has said when they will open Boy Scouts to girls. End of story....unless you are like this girl who wants preferential treatment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: https://town-village.com/2018/01/03/st-girl-recognized-as-boy-scout-after-11-years-of-scouting/ While Sydney told Town & Village this week she would like to see the BSA do away with the holdup on accepting girls, she said she is now satisfied with how things turned out. I wonder how much of this push for her being Eagle is her father vs her. Note that she does reference if she will get credit for her prior work. Thanks for the update Eagle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said: I'd like to do my BOR from 1981. It was the only thing I didn't do for Eagle. Can I ask for special consideration? Of course you can ask. Anyone can ask anything they want. The answer is going be (and should be) no, which I believe is the same answer the BSA will (and should) give Ms. Ireland. I actually see nothing wrong with her asking. I think it's great that she wants to be a Something-Scout and do the work required to earn Eagle. That doesn't mean she can, because she was born too soon. She can probably be a Something-Scout for a short period but apparently will not have time to earn Eagle. Maybe she will want to become an ASM in the Something-Scouts when she turns 18. They are going to need female leaders and all of her youth activities (official and unofficial) should make her a good candidate. (Added note: I think that under current rules, if all you needed for Eagle was a BOR and if the reasons you didn't have one were beyond your control (which is a big "if") then you probably COULD get an EBOR now.) Edited January 10, 2018 by NJCubScouter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tampa Turtle Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I think we get a bit cynical between the Talmudic reasoning on requirements on this forum and our experience with parental lawyering on advancement on the local level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, NJCubScouter said: Of course you can ask. Anyone can ask anything they want. The answer is going be (and should be) no, which I believe is the same answer the BSA will (and should) give Ms. Ireland. I actually see nothing wrong with her asking. I think it's great that she wants to be a Something-Scout and do the work required to earn Eagle. That doesn't mean she can, because she was born too soon. She can probably be a Something-Scout for a short period but apparently will not have time to earn Eagle. Maybe she will want to become an ASM in the Something-Scouts when she turns 18. They are going to need female leaders and all of her youth activities (official and unofficial) should make her a good candidate. I was being purposely obtuse. I KNOW I can ask. The POINT was that I know better. I live by the rules. I read them and I abide by them. Since BSA is a membership organization and can make their own rules, I don't openly ask them to change them just to accommodate me. Why? Because I believe in allowing organizations -- even ones I disagree with -- to do what they like, how they like. I don't ask to cut in line at Whataburger because I am hungrier than the people in front of me, I wait my turn. If you read the article she goes on to say how she cannot go to the world jamboree? "Her primary concern is trying to get the BSA to speed up the inclusion date from 2019. Unless admitted very soon, she’ll be unable to participate in certain activities like the 2019 International Jamboree, to be held in West Virginia." Really? She can't join a Venturing Crew and go? Her Ontario unit can't go? Please. And if you read further you see her father's fingerprints all over this issue. Lawyers....Shakespeare had the right idea. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Col. Flagg, let me ask you this: Do you think that when you were 16, you ever said or did anything, or asked for anything, that in retrospect as an adult, does not seem reasonable? I can tell you that in my case, the answer is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WisconsinMomma Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 23 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said: I was being purposely obtuse. I KNOW I can ask. The POINT was that I know better. I live by the rules. I read them and I abide by them. Since BSA is a membership organization and can make their own rules, I don't openly ask them to change them just to accommodate me. Why? Because I believe in allowing organizations -- even ones I disagree with -- to do what they like, how they like. I don't ask to cut in line at Whataburger because I am hungrier than the people in front of me, I wait my turn. If you read the article she goes on to say how she cannot go to the world jamboree? "Her primary concern is trying to get the BSA to speed up the inclusion date from 2019. Unless admitted very soon, she’ll be unable to participate in certain activities like the 2019 International Jamboree, to be held in West Virginia." Really? She can't join a Venturing Crew and go? Her Ontario unit can't go? Please. And if you read further you see her father's fingerprints all over this issue. Lawyers....Shakespeare had the right idea. As far as I can tell the request has been respectful and courteous. Different people have different styles, some are rule followers, and some are change agents. It's all OK. My opinion would change if the girl or her family starts trashing the BSA and behaves poorly, but I don't think anything is wrong with a polite request either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, WisconsinMomma said: As far as I can tell the request has been respectful and courteous. Different people have different styles, some are rule followers, and some are change agents. It's all OK. My opinion would change if the girl or her family starts trashing the BSA and behaves poorly, but I don't think anything is wrong with a polite request either. Change agent? Really? When someone asks for special consideration that is not being a "change agent", that's being a self-absorbed, egotistical manipulator. It's not like she's Rosa Parks here. It would be like me demanding my bank lend to me despite my 330 credit score. They have their own rules as a private bank as to who they lend to. Can I ASK for them to change and make an exception? SURE!! But to EXPECT...and to continue to press the issue...once the answer has been given is not being a "change agent". That's being self-absorbed and expecting special treatment. The way I read that article (and other interview with this family), the father as been exactly that...behaving poorly and disrespectful of the BSA. When a child asks for a cookie before dinner and a parent tells them no -- and they keep asking, then bad-mouthing the parent -- should they not be labelled a spoiled, petulant child? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jameson76 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said: As far as I can tell the request has been respectful and courteous. Different people have different styles, some are rule followers, and some are change agents. It's all OK. My opinion would change if the girl or her family starts trashing the BSA and behaves poorly, but I don't think anything is wrong with a polite request either. Well...except for Daddy Ireland Her father, corporate attorney Gary Ireland, slammed the BSA for this. “It is outrageous and embarrassing that the Scouts will ban local young women from participating, particularly as we are the host country,” he said. “Scouts need to be a certain age and rank to attend a Jamboree. With the Boy Scouts allowing girls into the program very soon, it is unclear why they continue to refuse admission to Sydney.” As has been noted there are a myriad or ways for her to attend the World Jamboree. But that is just the straw man argument 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 Ok then. We agree to disagree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said: Ok then. We agree to disagree. What does that mean? Agree to disagree on what issue exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tampa Turtle Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I think She has been courteous and respectful the dad less so. At least that is what it reads like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 Hard to know with her father. He may be quoted out of context, frustrated with the response or lack of response from National, being a Dad, or being a jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tampa Turtle Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 ...but philosophically I am with Flagg. Sadly I suspect if her she did not look like an all-american girl than this would not even got this far. It helps her case that she is photogenic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jameson76 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said: Hard to know with her father. He may be quoted out of context, frustrated with the response or lack of response from National, being a Dad, or being a jerk. He is an NYC lawyer, I feel you have answered your question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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