Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

[Hawkwin]

On 1/5/2018 at 4:45 PM, qwazse said:

You're twisting GTA 5.0.4.0 beyond its intent. We are to never accept work from a Canadian resident member of Scouts Canada. The guide is clear on the intended beneficiary:

• Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here ...

I don't understand the confusion. Here is the full text:

https://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

Quote

 

Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or

have moved here, may register in a BSA unit and participate in advancement. If

progress from a foreign Scouting association is to be considered and

applied to BSA requirements, then the foreign Scout must

meet in person (or over electronic media) with members

of the council or district advancement committee, along

with at least one adult leader or committee member of the

receiving unit.

 

What about the above would suggest that we would never accept work from a member of Scouts Canada? If they "temporarily reside in the United States, or moved here," seems quite clear to me. What am I missing?

On 1/5/2018 at 4:45 PM, qwazse said:

That wording precludes youth who never resided in the US, youth who permanently resided in the US, and youth who mostly reside in the US but temporarily (using the loosest possible definition of the term) leave the US to participate in another scout program. Moreover, it sets bounds on which ranks may be rewarded

The wording doesn't preclude anything. It simply doesn't address this situation at all. To "preclude," is to prevent. The wording doesn't prohibit or prevent what she is trying to do - that section just states what is allowed. For example, an American scout that earned Tenderfoot, moving with their parents to Canada and earning their 1st Class equivalent, and then moving back to the US could have that "work" recognized as 1st Class in BSA. If that section precluded what she was trying to do, it would specifically state such.

A Canadian citizen and Scout Canada member that "temporarily reside

 in the United States" could join BSA as high as a Life Scout, earn Eagle, and then go back to Canada. 

The only question is whether or not BSA will prohibit a US citizen and Scouts Canada member the same privilege. 

On 1/5/2018 at 4:45 PM, qwazse said:

Furthermore, it is only intended to recognize skills acquisition, not participation, responsibility, or leadership:

    Requirements for active participation, position of responsibility, Scout spirit, the service project, and the unit leader conference must be completed in a BSA unit. 

  

 

I think you quoted the wrong section: 

Quote

 

 

This procedure applies to all ranks except Eagle Scout,

which is not considered equivalent to any other association’s

rank. If it can be established that Life rank has been

achieved, then the council or district advancement

committee can determine which BSA merit badges may

be awarded based on previous effort and experiences

that meet BSA merit badge requirements as written. This

may leave a number of additional badges to earn—

required or not—to achieve Eagle.

 

 

Again, the only question is whether or not we will allow the same privilege for US citizens 
that permanently reside here as we do for Canadian citizens that don't. 

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by RememberSchiff
Remove strikethrough not supported in HTML5

[Col. Flagg]

There's one problem with this whole debate about this girl getting credit for Eagle: Currently girls are NOT allowed to be in Boy Scouts (troops, not crews) in the United States OR do ANY work that will get credited toward Eagle.

This proves that her "fight" was NOT about getting girls in Scouts. It was about HER getting Eagle and nothing else.

I say too bad. You won the war but lost your battle. Take your triumph and move on.

[Hawkwin]

OK, I didn't strikeout my own post and there are no edit marks on my post, what is going on here?

Edit: And apparently I can't copy and paste and remove the strikeout. Oh well.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Hawkwin

[RememberSchiff]

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

OK, I didn't strikeout my own post and there are no edit marks on my post, what is going on here?

Edit: And apparently I can't copy and paste and remove the strikeout. Oh well.

I will have a look.

cc: @NJCubScouter , @Sentinel947, @LeCastor

I cleared out the strikethrough. I think the text that was copied had text codes which are no longer supported by HTML5. Also text appears to be frames.

Better?

Edited January 8, 2018 by RememberSchiff

[Back Pack]

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

OK, I didn't strikeout my own post and there are no edit marks on my post, what is going on here?

Edit: And apparently I can't copy and paste and remove the strikeout. Oh well.

Odd but in the mobile version the post does not appear to be struck out but in the desktop version it does. 

[NJCubScouter]

25 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

cc: @NJCubScouter , @Sentinel947, @LeCastor

I cleared out the strikethrough. I think the text that was copied had text codes which are no longer supported by HTML5. Also text appears to be frames.

I tried to do the same thing earlier but with my feeble technical skills I could not figure out how.  So, how?

[RememberSchiff]

13 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I tried to do the same thing earlier but with my feeble technical skills I could not figure out how.  So, how?

I edited his post as follows:

I highlighted the striked-thru text for selection.

Clicked on <> code icon.

Cleared text appeared in code frame.

Inserted back in post (which may be why there is a framing appearance).

Repeat for other striked-thru text.

[NJCubScouter]

RS:  Ok, thanks.

[Eagle1993]

7 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

There's one problem with this whole debate about this girl getting credit for Eagle: Currently girls are NOT allowed to be in Boy Scouts (troops, not crews) in the United States OR do ANY work that will get credited toward Eagle.

This proves that her "fight" was NOT about getting girls in Scouts. It was about HER getting Eagle and nothing else.

I say too bad. You won the war but lost your battle. Take your triumph and move on.

Her “fight” could have been both about her own interest and also the broader “good”.   Either way, I think BSA should keep this simple.   Set the start date for girls, any girl that joins must meet the requirements (including timeline) for Eagle.   I think that leaves her out but honestly there are probably 1,000s of other girls in similar situations who did work without recognition.   I dont think she should get special treatment because her dad was a rich NYC lawyer who ensured her story was publicized.  True leaders would be excited for the change and confident that their work is the true mark of accomplishment and leadership... not the rank.   

[qwazse]

On January 8, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Hawkwin said:

...What about the above would suggest that we would never accept work from a member of Scouts Canada? If they "temporarily reside in the United States, or moved here," seems quite clear to me. What am I missing?

The wording doesn't preclude anything. It simply doesn't address this situation at all. To "preclude," is to prevent.

 

 

"Preclude" means that, by specifying a class that language includes, one may make straightforward inference about which class is excluded. If the language did address any specific class it would be an exclusion.

By stating clearly that the class includes members of foreign scouting organization's who temporarily reside in the US, the language precludes members of  foreign scouting organization's who permanently reside in the us.

But, suppose there is some other young woman who has been doing a bang up job in the scout association of her homeland. She comes to the US next year, joining a BSA4G troop. Her SM could go over her career so far, and determine what trail-to-first class achievements and MB's she would have earned. That could take a week or two. But, the participation requirements would have to be met "in a BSA unit". That woman would still have ahead of her the months of participation for Star and Life, service in a position responsibility, and demonstration of scout spirit. This waiver is quite clear that performance of those requirements as a member of another scout association do not count.

There is just no way that this waiver as helps to "fast track" any scout's advancement - let alone one of a scout whose home address has been U.S.A all along.

[NJCubScouter]

Interestingly, I have seen no indication that Ms. Ireland has even raised the "international option" as an issue.  Her request is that she be permitted to start working on Eagle (well, really, Scout through Eagle) now, including the counting of the time periods, so that she will have the opportunity to make it before her 18th birthday.  The majority of us here (including me), but not all of us, seem to feel that this request should not be granted.

[CalicoPenn]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 2:27 PM, NJCubScouter said:

I don't know her either (but as I have said before, I do have admiration for her, I just don't agree with her on this specific issue.)  What I do know is that she apparently lives in New York City and regularly attends troop meetings in London, Ontario.   Even if you were to discount the "resources" factor, New York City is closer to London, Ontario than most of the rest of the country is.  What do we say to a girl in, let's say, rural Texas, exactly the same age, who under no circumstances is going to be able to go to London, Ontario on a regular basis?

I know this is late in the game but I'd like to point out that London, Ontario is about halfway between Buffalo, New York and Detroit, Michigan.  Its about 550 miles away from NYC.

[Col. Flagg]

On 1/8/2018 at 7:03 PM, Eagle1993 said:

Her “fight” could have been both about her own interest and also the broader “good”.   Either way, I think BSA should keep this simple.   Set the start date for girls, any girl that joins must meet the requirements (including timeline) for Eagle.   I think that leaves her out but honestly there are probably 1,000s of other girls in similar situations who did work without recognition.   I dont think she should get special treatment because her dad was a rich NYC lawyer who ensured her story was publicized.  True leaders would be excited for the change and confident that their work is the true mark of accomplishment and leadership... not the rank.   

If that's the case, doing all these things to force the issue of her getting special treatment would not be so prevalent. She'd be happy to take the win of getting girls in Scouting and move on. The fact she's still pushing to get credit for various things related to getting Eagle demonstrates she's looking for MORE special treatment. It detracts from her role in the bigger picture and cheapens it. In the end it was about what she could get out of it.

[NJCubScouter]

15 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

The fact she's still pushing to get credit for various things related to getting Eagle demonstrates she's looking for MORE special treatment. 

I have not seen any article saying that she is trying to get "credit" for anything.  What the article linked at the beginning of this thread says is that she is asking to be able to join now rather than when the new program goes into effect because the time period in between is the difference between her having a shot at making Eagle before she turns 18, and not.  

[Eagle1993]

 

https://town-village.com/2018/01/03/st-girl-recognized-as-boy-scout-after-11-years-of-scouting/

While Sydney told Town & Village this week she would like to see the BSA do away with the holdup on accepting girls, she said she is now satisfied with how things turned out.

I wonder how much of this push for her being Eagle is her father vs her.  

Note that she does reference if she will get credit for her prior work.