Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

[NJCubScouter]

2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

I think the point is that she potentially has "served her time" as a leader in the Canadian Boy Scouts. BSA already has a policy that would allow a scout living in Canada to apply what they already accomplished to the path of Eagle.

That makes this more a question of whether her time served will be disqualified because she lived in the US or if it will be accepted under the spirit of the rules (as I see them).

Hawkwin, we seem to agree most of the time, but I can't join you on this one.  I think it is appropriate to make a distinction between a youth who actually lives in another country and a U.S. resident who is able to participate in a program in another country.  Plus, while it is great that her parents have the resources to fly her to Canada and back on a regular basis so she can get a "Boy Scout (ish) experience," what would the BSA say to a girl (with the same "timing" issue) whose family could not afford all that traveling?

This decision has been controversial enough without adding in exceptions to the advancement requirements for young women who are "too old" to meet the time requirements when the new program takes effect.  As I have said before, when a major change like this is made, there is always someone who becomes the last person who does not get to take advantage of it.    Life is not always fair.

[Hawkwin]

11 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think it is appropriate to make a distinction between a youth who actually lives in another country and a U.S. resident who is able to participate in a program in another country. 

Why?

Seriously, what part of the Oath and Law do we serve by such a restriction? Don't get me wrong, I am a big "rule follower" and if BSA wants to stand firm with no quibble, then I will fully support that decision. I will also support a decision that would allow for the spirit of the rules ("Do Your Best") - that someone that has completed qualifying work in another affiliated BSA organization is allowed to apply said work to BSA, regardless of their physical address at the time the work was completed.

Let's go back 10 years before all the membership changes. For the sake of the argument, if a male scout that lived on the border, but in the United States, decided to participate in Canadian scouts because there was no local troop option in the United States and wished to apply that work to BSA when a local troop option became available, I don't there would be many objections. I of course an open to being wrong on that belief but I think many scouters would say that the spirit of the rules apply. We had a scout that wanted to be part of BSA but could not so they joined Canadian Scouts but switched to BSA at the earliest opportunity. We would fall all over ourselves to try and welcome that scout - especially if that scout was largely responsible for the creation of that local option.

That is not dissimilar from the situation in which Ms. Ireland finds herself. She had no local option in the United States so she joined a foreign troop.

Now that one will be available, she wishes to apply any qualifying experience - the same experience we may allow from any of her Canadian peers that live in London Ontario, to BSA.

It seems exceptionally odd to me that we would willingly chose to discriminate against her, not because of her gender in this case, but because her nationality is American. Pardon the pun but that seems exceptionally un-American to me.

And as far as her family wealth and opportunities, I don't know her and her family and I see no reason to speculate or make judgments for her or against her on that point. We all have advantages and disadvantages based on a nearly infinite number of factors.

19 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

This decision has been controversial enough without adding in exceptions to the advancement requirements for young women who are "too old"

 You appear to be conflating two different issues. I WOULD NOT approve or support any changes to the age requirements. This does not appear to be an issue of being too old to complete the requirements. This is an issue of whether or not we will accept work completed by an American in a foreign troop.

I would/will share your opinion if: 1. Her work is found to be insufficient to what we would honor from any other Canadian scout or 2. If she had not been a registered member of a foreign BSA affiliate.

[NJCubScouter]

10 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

And as far as her family wealth and opportunities, I don't know her and her family and I see no reason to speculate or make judgments for her or against her on that point. We all have advantages and disadvantages based on a nearly infinite number of factors.

I don't know her either (but as I have said before, I do have admiration for her, I just don't agree with her on this specific issue.)  What I do know is that she apparently lives in New York City and regularly attends troop meetings in London, Ontario.   Even if you were to discount the "resources" factor, New York City is closer to London, Ontario than most of the rest of the country is.  What do we say to a girl in, let's say, rural Texas, exactly the same age, who under no circumstances is going to be able to go to London, Ontario on a regular basis?

[Hawkwin]

5 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

What do we say to a girl in, let's say, rural Texas, exactly the same age, who under no circumstances is going to be able to go to London, Ontario on a regular basis?

Life isn't fair.

The same thing we would say to any other scout that lacked the financial means or the forethought to join another organization. For all I know, Canadian scouts has a lone scout program that would have accepted that girl (or boy) in rural Texas. Maybe there is a UK scout program that would do the same. Don't fault Ireland for doing everything she could to be active in Scouts. Fault those that didn't think outside the box enough to do the same. In the end, if we don't discriminate against the Canadian for living in Canada, then what do we gain for discriminating against the American for living in America?

In general, those individuals that are committed to success will look for ways to find it. When I was on active duty in the Army, I maxed out my "promotion points" by taking every correspondence course I could find, even those that had nothing to do with my job, or even the Army (I took a few Marine correspondence courses for credit). My promotion board could have said, "well, it wasn't fair that other soldiers didn't know about or find out about all the ways to earn promotion points so we are taking yours away," but they didn't.

[NJCubScouter]

Ok, well we shall see what National does.  My prediction is that they will try to do what they think will cause the least amount of additional controversy, and I think that would be not to "count" her achievements in Canada, and not to do anything else that will permit her to earn Eagle without fulfilling the existing time requirements, starting from when young women can actually join the new Boy-Scout-age-level join troops.  My predictions have a mixed record. 

It's also funny, we both said "life isn't fair" but it leads us to two different conclusions.

Edited January 3, 2018 by NJCubScouter

[Hawkwin]

12 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

It's also funny, we both said "life isn't fair" but it leads us to two different conclusions.

Actually "life isn't fair" was also my initial response on this subject as a reason to deny her request:

Once I learned that she was an active scout in Canada, I changed my opinion as it pertains to her case. Either way, I think "life isn't fair" is still a good lesson for all parties.

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

... What do we say to a girl in, let's say, rural Texas, exactly the same age, who under no circumstances is going to be able to go to London, Ontario on a regular basis?

Viva Mexico!

I actually think the international organization clause is intended for the scout who did that work, but didn't get recognition in the other movement. E.g., traveling with the family to wherever for a parent's sabbatical, a scout was active in a troop and camped/hiked with them there, but could not really earn recognition from that organization because the stay was to brief or awards weren't given for that sort of thing - as is common with many older scouts in other WOSM organizations. When the scout returns to a US troop, leaders might want it to count for something, because the scout was, in a sense, staying active in his troop - albeit from a distance.

In this case, the young woman went to another country and earned another country's award. She got due recognition for it. So, I can see why @NJCubScouter would be hard-pressed to concede that she is the class of scout for whom this exception was intended.

Activity in a rogue US troop is more in line with the spirit of working the trail to Eagle, and if that doesn't fly, neither will stretching the letter of the "international scouting" clause.

Edited January 3, 2018 by qwazse

[Stosh]

It's a forgone conclusion that Ireland will be the first female eagle scout designated by BSA.

[NJCubScouter]

Bet you an imaginary dollar she never gets Eagle at all, unless they move up the start date for the new program and she can meet the time requirements.

[Stosh]

It isn't a matter of time, but time will tell.

[Tampa Turtle]

The SS Eagle Integrity is a leaky boat already. Keep bailing.

[Stosh]

That's kinda the same approach used by the people on the Titanic.    Keep everyone busy and maybe no one will notice.

[walk in the woods]

On 1/3/2018 at 2:27 PM, NJCubScouter said:

What do we say to a girl in, let's say, rural Texas, exactly the same age, who under no circumstances is going to be able to go to London, Ontario on a regular basis?

Or was a member of the BPSA?  Not WOSM affiliated but why should that matter if she's done the work?

[Sentinel947]

5 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Or was a member of the BPSA?  Not WOSM affiliated but why should that matter if she's done the work?

Would you give Eagle to a Trails Life scout who decided he wanted Eagle instead of whatever award it is they give out?

Let's just be honest. Mrs. Ireland has not done the work, because she's not eligible to do the work. I can't study advanced coursework and then go to the local university and demand my masters degree, because I "did the work."  I have to follow the requirements as the university lays them out if I want their degree. Unfortunately there are no procedures in place for a situation like this, because Mrs. Ireland is the first who's the challenged the situation in this way. There are specific exceptions made for Scouts from other eligible Scouting organizations worldwide, and she doesn't meet those criteria either. 

The BSA may roll over and play dead to avoid bad PR with this case, but it doesn't mean they should. It's very unfortunate for Mrs. Ireland to miss out on earning Eagle, but every American Girl since the founding of the BSA has missed out on earning Eagle, and while I'm happy that's going to change in the future, it's going to be girls that earned the award following the requirements and doing things the right way, the same way all their male peers have earned it. And that is the only equality worth having. 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

Would you give Eagle to a Trails Life scout who decided he wanted Eagle instead of whatever award it is they give out?

Let's just be honest. Mrs. Ireland has not done the work, because she's not eligible to do the work. I can't study advanced coursework and then go to the local university and demand my masters degree, because I "did the work."  I have to follow the requirements as the university lays them out if I want their degree. Unfortunately there are no procedures in place for a situation like this, because Mrs. Ireland is the first who's the challenged the situation in this way. There are specific exceptions made for Scouts from other eligible Scouting organizations worldwide, and she doesn't meet those criteria either. 

The BSA may roll over and play dead to avoid bad PR with this case, but it doesn't mean they should. It's very unfortunate for Mrs. Ireland to miss out on earning Eagle, but every American Girl since the founding of the BSA has missed out on earning Eagle, and while I'm happy that's going to change in the future, it's going to be girls that earned the award following the requirements and doing things the right way, the same way all their male peers have earned it. And that is the only equality worth having. 

Or, BSA may capitalize on the positive PR Ms. Ireland has already garnered and simply just go with the flow as it has a track record of doing.  She is the media's poster-girl for the movement, has been going through the motions, earned the Canadian rank, and has the right connections.  Why would they not want Ms. Ireland to be in the spotlight.  It would be a PR disaster NOT to make her the first Eagle.