Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I think their plan is the min wait periods so you are correct it would be longer than 1 year.

19 months minimum.

1 Month for Tenderfoot

FITNESS

6

1. Record your best in the following tests:

   •	Pushups	________	(Record the number done correctly in 60 seconds)
   •	Situps or curl-ups	________	(Record the number done correctly in 60 seconds)
   •	Back-saver sit-and-reach	________	(Record the distance stretched)
   •	1 mile walk/run	________	(Record the time)

2. Develop and describe a plan for improvement in each of the activities listed in Tenderfoot requirement 6a. Keep track of your activity for at least 30 days.
3. Show improvement (of any degree) in each activity listed in Tenderfoot requirement 6a after practicing for 30 days.

   •	Pushups	________	(Record the number done correctly in 60 seconds)
   •	Situps or curl-ups	________	(Record the number done correctly in 60 seconds)
   •	Back-saver sit-and-reach	________	(Record the distance stretched)
   •	1 mile walk/run	________	(Record the time)

 

1 Month for Second Class

FITNESS

7. 1. After competing Tenderfoot requirement 6c, be physically active at least 30 minutes a day for five days a week for four weeks. Keep track of your activities.

1 Month for First Class

• FITNESS
  8. 1. After completing Second Class requirement 7a, be physically active at least 30 minutes every day for five days a week for four weeks. Keep track of your activities.
     2. Share your challenges and successes in completing First Class requirement 8a. Set a goal for continuing to include physical activity as part of your daily life and develop a plan for doing so.

4 Months for Star

6 Months for Life

6 Months for Eagle.

 

While I wish people would not make Scouting a race, I know there will be a race to be the first female Eagle. I hope that whomever sits on those EBORs makes sure everything is up to snuff, otherwise it will diminish the achievement and Eagle.

[qwazse]

So, I put this to the four twenty-somethings at dinner, seeing as we were dashing out to wait a half hour in line for good seats at the theater, and for the price of feeding them I wanted their opinions for the blogosphere. Two were Eagles, two were never given the chance due to their identity. However, those two didn't peruse awards or recognition in the youth clubs in which they were involved. The following is not my opinion, but reflects what these young adults settled on rather quickly:

The consensus: a girl, having mastered skills commensurate with rank advancement and developed leadership, should be granted an EBoR. Her time served and leadership skills developed in a rogue troop should count toward rank advancement. The most recent Eagle was strident that scouters should not make this about time requirements because in doing so, they demean the rank. Earning Eagle was about attaining skills, not marking time. Everyone else supported his assertion. That this might open the floodgates for appeals for Eagle rank retrospectively was immaterial. They had no problem with BSA reconsidering past appeals.

Mrs. Q brought up the possibility of law suits, but I reminded them that this is a private organization and the SCOTUS has upheld BSA's rights on these matters. However, the court of public opinion had influenced which rights BSA would excersize in recent years.

Note that none of my young adults are currently volunteers or professionals in scouting. These simply have been surrounded by Eagle Scouts for the duration of time in this family. They are likely to volunteer/contribute in the future, and unlikely to join this forum. That's why I figured their opinions might provide insights. Make of it what you will.

Edited December 28, 2017 by qwazse

[scoutldr]

Well, I disagree with the youngsters.  Part of being Eagle is leading and mentoring younger Scouts along the way, serving as a good example (Scout Spirit and all that)...you can't do that without "serving time".  If we eliminated time requirements, some over-achievers could "make" (not "earn") Eagle within months.  Talk about "demeaning the rank"...how many times in this forum have we had to remind people that "it's about the journey, not the piece of cloth."

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

Well, I disagree with the youngsters.  Part of being Eagle is leading and mentoring younger Scouts along the way, serving as a good example (Scout Spirit and all that)...you can't do that without "serving time".  If we eliminated time requirements, some over-achievers could "make" (not "earn") Eagle within months.  Talk about "demeaning the rank"...how many times in this forum have we had to remind people that "it's about the journey, not the piece of cloth."

More background: this lot has not experienced an Eagle mill troop. They had a parent who endured icicle eyes from his wife when he said "Make rank or not, it's not my problem. Mine an your SM's job is to make sure you return from each challenge safely. Make a good plan, get support. No plan, no action."

They knew "helicopter" and "tiger" parents, but not by those names. Their kids didn't last long in our units, unless they eventually chose the hikes where dad couldn't keep up. 

My sons spent 3 to 5 times the required period between ranks - always in some position of responsibility, and certainly gave 10-fold the minimum in service hours. Daughter and eventually daughter-in-law pitched in where they were welcome. They mentored dozens of scouts and venturers. The minimums are trivial to them. More importantly: they had boundary issues that would drive the officious batty. Skills were exchanged with scouts and non-scouts alike, and their "real" patrol extended beyond the unit roster.

So, you and I and folks on this forum definitely have dealt with high-speed low-drag proponents to the point that we sometimes feel like the odd man out at roundtable. These Eagles have not -- thus their perspective that the meat of the rank is in the mastery of skills and self.

The question then becomes, how many former scouts are like that? Have we become victims of our own success so much that these young adults are representative of a people who value recognition citizens based on substance over form? It's about the journey? Well we can't from this side of the Internet know if the journey of a girl who has spent 4 years in a rogue troop gave her skills in and developed leadership better than the boy who worked a two year checklist. Isn't that reason enough to grant an EBoR?

[NJCubScouter]

7 hours ago, qwazse said:

The question then becomes, how many former scouts are like that? Have we become victims of our own success so much that these young adults are representative of a people who value recognition citizens based on substance over form? It's about the journey? Well we can't from this side of the Internet know if the journey of a girl who has spent 4 years in a rogue troop gave her skills in and developed leadership better than the boy who worked a two year checklist. Isn't that reason enough to grant an EBoR?

And what exactly are the members of the EBOR supposed to determine?  And how are they supposed to determine it?

I have sat on most likely 100 or more BOR's including let's say 15-20 EBOR's.  I have trained other committee members on how BOR's are to be done.  The main thing the BOR is supposed to determine (without "re-testing", of course) is whether the Scout has fulfilled the requirements for the rank.  There are other purposes to a BOR, but that's the  primary purpose.  I as a BOR member know exactly what requirements the Scout is supposed to have passed.  It's right there in the book.  There is no mystery about what the Scout is being measured against.  There is relatively little "value judgment" to be employed in the process.

So now I am confronted with a young person - the gender does not matter - who has NOT passed all the requirements, albeit through no fault of their own, and I'm supposed to decide whether they are an Eagle or not.  Based on what?  How skillful she is and how much leadership she has shown?  Compared to what?  What's the standard?

[qwazse]

17 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

And what exactly are the members of the EBOR supposed to determine?  And how are they supposed to determine it?

I have sat on most likely 100 or more BOR's including let's say 15-20 EBOR's.  I have trained other committee members on how BOR's are to be done.  The main thing the BOR is supposed to determine (without "re-testing", of course) is whether the Scout has fulfilled the requirements for the rank.  There are other purposes to a BOR, but that's the  primary purpose.  I as a BOR member know exactly what requirements the Scout is supposed to have passed.  It's right there in the book.  There is no mystery about what the Scout is being measured against.  There is relatively little "value judgment" to be employed in the process.

So now I am confronted with a young person - the gender does not matter - who has NOT passed all the requirements, albeit through no fault of their own, and I'm supposed to decide whether they are an Eagle or not.  Based on what?  How skillful she is and how much leadership she has shown?  Compared to what?  What's the standard?

Honestly, I have no idea. But seeing as my positions next year will be troop committee and council venturing committee, I'm trying to get my head around this thing before someone invites me to sit on one young woman's board.

According to last night's conversation this doesn't require overthink. In her rogue troop, was a female candidate given a position of responsibility? What did she do in it? What kind of service projects did she do? What project did she plan and implement and demonstrate leadership on? There should be none of this "pretty good, for a girl" or even "admirable, considering the circumstances." We'd be looking for the typical "above and beyond" that we've come to expect in boys who've come up for review.

If National approved the application for a EBoR, the question boils down to: were they right to do so? Or, did they miss something?

Like you, I am concerned that a scout career in retrospective, without sanctioned reviews at the time, might result in an unreliable review. But,  I haven't seen cut-dates and hard deadlines help the reliability of review all that much.

[NJCubScouter]

3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

If National approved the application for a EBoR, the question boils down to: were they right to do so? Or, did they miss something?

This is a hypothetical, right?  You mean if National tells council to give a Scout a BOR?  Has that ever happened?  National doesn't even know someone is going for Eagle until after the EBOR is over.  On those occasions when someone "fails" or is not granted a BOR at council/unit level, and there is an appeal to National, and it is successful, doesn't National just award the Eagle?  Or do they direct the council/unit to hold a BOR?  If it is the latter, and this happens with a Scout who has not met all the requirements, National had better send along a letter saying exactly what requirements have been waived.  At least then the EBOR can decide if the person has met all the requirements they have to meet and not some amorphous idea that they seem to have had the same experiences as someone who actually passed all the requirements.

[qwazse]

22 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

This is a hypothetical, right?  You mean if National tells council to give a Scout a BOR?  Has that ever happened?  National doesn't even know someone is going for Eagle until after the EBOR is over.  On those occasions when someone "fails" or is not granted a BOR at council/unit level, and there is an appeal to National, and it is successful, doesn't National just award the Eagle?  Or do they direct the council/unit to hold a BOR?  If it is the latter, and this happens with a Scout who has not met all the requirements, National had better send along a letter saying exactly what requirements have been waived.  At least then the EBOR can decide if the person has met all the requirements they have to meet and not some amorphous idea that they seem to have had the same experiences as someone who actually passed all the requirements.

Sorry, I got the order of operations muddled. Council reviews the application before arranging the EBoR. We would like to think that in the case of a rogue troop, they'd give National a call before proceeding, but that might not be how it will play out in any given council.

[Eagle94-A1]

28 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

  On those occasions when someone "fails" or is not granted a BOR at council/unit level, and there is an appeal to National, and it is successful, doesn't National just award the Eagle?  Or do they direct the council/unit to hold a BOR?  If it is the latter, and this happens with a Scout who has not met all the requirements, National had better send along a letter saying exactly what requirements have been waived.  At least then the EBOR can decide if the person has met all the requirements they have to meet and not some amorphous idea that they seem to have had the same experiences as someone who actually passed all the requirements.

 

I met one "Eagle" who received it on appeal. The EBOR did not grant him Eagle because they found that the unit leaders, who also happened to be his parents and grandfather, pencil-whipped his Eagle. Long story short, he appealed to  National and received it because 'you do not punish the Scout for the errrors of the adults involved" or words to that effect. District advancement committee resigned in protest.

[NJCubScouter]

2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Sorry, I got the order of operations muddled. Council reviews the application before arranging the EBoR. We would like to think that in the case of a rogue troop, they'd give National a call before proceeding, but that might not be how it will play out in any given council.

Well, despite my sarcastic comment earlier and my general cynicism where National is concerned, I actually do think that National is going to issue some guidance regarding this subject, sometime before the date when young women are officially admitted as members at the 11-17 age level.  I guess there is still a flicker of idealism left in me after all.

[NJCubScouter]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I met one "Eagle" who received it on appeal. The EBOR did not grant him Eagle because they found that the unit leaders, who also happened to be his parents and grandfather, pencil-whipped his Eagle. Long story short, he appealed to  National and received it because 'you do not punish the Scout for the errrors of the adults involved" or words to that effect. District advancement committee resigned in protest.

So in that case, National did not send it back for another EBOR, they just reversed the EBOR and awarded Eagle.  That is what I thought happens.

[HelpfulTracks]

I’m likely to misquote here since I’m going from memory, but one of documents states that the Scout must be a registered Scout during the time the requirements are met.

That seems reasonable. That requirement alone would preclude Miss Ireland. 

BTW - Nationals does not approve an Eagle app before it goes to board of review. The Council registrar verifies that all the information required is on the application, and that the dates are correct. The registrar does not approve anything either.

I will query my 16 yr old Life Scout and my 13 yr old soon to be Venturer (and possibly a Scout) as well and get back to the thread. Though I have discussed it with both I will ask the in reference to this thread.

[NJCubScouter]

21 hours ago, qwazse said:

But seeing as my positions next year will be troop committee and council venturing committee, I'm trying to get my head around this thing before someone invites me to sit on one young woman's board.

The problem is that you (and me, and all other local-types) are not on the same schedule as BSA National.  They announce girls will be able to earn Eagle, we want to know how that's going to work.  They will tell us when they are ready - which, hopefully will be before the situation actually comes up.

[qwazse]

29 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

The problem is that you (and me, and all other local-types) are not on the same schedule as BSA National.  They announce girls will be able to earn Eagle, we want to know how that's going to work.  They will tell us when they are ready - which, hopefully will be before the situation actually comes up.

I appreciate your optimism. But, as we've seen with this year's insta-palms and trail to first class camping provisions, the national advancement team has a tough time discerning a common understanding of what is equitable when phasing in revised requirements.

Maybe paradigm shifts can never be equitable. But, I like hearing from as many sides as possible ... then, when I get handed national's policy, I'll have some sense of how palatable that edict will be.

20 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I’m likely to misquote here since I’m going from memory, but one of documents states that the Scout must be a registered Scout during the time the requirements are met.

That seems reasonable. That requirement alone would preclude Miss Ireland. 

BTW - Nationals does not approve an Eagle app before it goes to board of review. The Council registrar verifies that all the information required is on the application, and that the dates are correct. The registrar does not approve anything either.

I will query my 16 yr old Life Scout and my 13 yr old soon to be Venturer (and possibly a Scout) as well and get back to the thread. Though I have discussed it with both I will ask the in reference to this thread.

@HelpfulTracks, I think you have that requirement right. At least last year, I remember getting a lecture that included a threat that if your charter lapses, you must suspend unit activities, including advancement. This had to do with getting all PA mandated clearances in and direct-contact leaders trained. There was actually some talk of making sure all of the district's Life scouts in units behind on paperwork could be transferred to "stable" units. It didn't come to that, but we were drawing up the plans B and C.

I've always taken the "stay registered" litmus test to be for boys who might not otherwise pay dues or be in good standing. I think it also had to do wih BSA minimizing its liability exposure. It's an open question as to how this would play out with someone who wanted to be registered, but was denied because of decisions by adults.

It will be interesting to hear what your scout and venturer in training have to say.

[Hawkwin]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 6:29 AM, scoutldr said:

you can't do that without "serving time".  

I think the point is that she potentially has "served her time" as a leader in the Canadian Boy Scouts. BSA already has a policy that would allow a scout living in Canada to apply what they already accomplished to the path of Eagle.

That makes this more a question of whether her time served will be disqualified because she lived in the US or if it will be accepted under the spirit of the rules (as I see them).