Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

[RememberSchiff]

@Back Pack your post was edited. No need for derogatory references.

Don't confuse awards and achievements. Your achievements are not worthless nor are their worth determined by awards assuming you receive an award.  And no one can make your achievements worthless.

cc:  @NJCubScouter @Sentinel947

[Tampa Turtle]

I think Back Pack sentiment shows any deviation from the rules for the first Girl Eagles --and our CSE has said there will be no change--is a land mine waiting to go off with many scouters. The first female Eagle Scout is out there somewhere and needs to earn it fair and square. Unfortunately for her I do not think Miss Ireland is that girl even though she seems like a terrific scout.

[WisconsinMomma]

I'll add that the girl and family seem to be asking politely for what they want.   If you want something, it's OK to ask.  They might get permission, they  might not.  As long as they are gracious about asking and about receiving an answer, I don't see a problem. 

 

I have no idea who this family is, btw. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by WisconsinMomma

[an_old_DC]

Maybe I’m thinking of a different girl and Boy Scout troop, but hasn’t the Troop Ireland tagged along with held BORs for her and submitted advancement reports that were rejected and sent back? Somebody has been telling her she “unofficially” earned ranks, right?

[RememberSchiff]

@an_old_DCAccording to NPR  (link below)

Sydney Ireland has been involved with scouting since she was four years old, when she began tagging along with her older brother to Cub Scout meetings. Since then, she has been an unofficial, but enthusiastic, member of Troop 414 in Manhattan. "

Over the years, Sydney's activities with the troop have included camping trips, hiking, archery, ice climbing and, yes, knot-tying. As a city kid, she has learned to cherish a connection to the outdoors and she credits the Boy Scouts for helping to foster it.

But although the local troop has welcomed Sydney's participation, she is not able to officially earn merit badges and advance in rank along with the boys around her, because she is a girl.

...

Sydney takes scouting and the skills involved so seriously that she has sought membership in troops outside the U.S. She is a full, dues-paying member of a troop in Ontario, Canada — one of dozens of countries with co-ed scouting. In fact, Sydney recently earned the Chief Scout's Award, Canada's highest honor in scouting, and has the badge and a letter of congratulations from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to show for it.

But she is determined to become an Eagle Scout as a full member of Troop 414, reaching the top achievement of an organization she has been part of nearly her entire life.

https://www.npr.org/2017/04/29/526021195/meet-the-teenage-girl-who-wants-to-be-a-boy-scout

[Stosh]

So much for a Scout is Trustworthy.  I'm thinking that most galas have the Red Carpet at the front door, not at the service door in the back.  But then again, I could be wrong.

[Tampa Turtle]

7 minutes ago, Stosh said:

So much for a Scout is Trustworthy.  I'm thinking that most galas have the Red Carpet at the front door, not at the service door in the back.  But then again, I could be wrong.

I think the NPR story hints that a lot of this may lead up to a lawsuit. Certainly seems like a paper trail has been created. I suspect BSA National will be caught between being tempted to fold when being portrayed as a discriminatory bully VS preserving the Eagle Brand.

Perhaps she can be content with as an "Unofficial Eagle" but I doubt it.  When I was working at a University I knew a smart but insufferable guy who used to like to say his degree was Biology Phd ABD. That is a Phd in Biology and All But Dissertation. One of my young academic wags once heard him say it one too many times and called out "That's what we call a Master's Degree". 

[qwazse]

11 hours ago, Back Pack said:

Yes it does. Have guys gotten their Eagle because they were In Eagle mills? Yes. That’s way different than breaking, not bending, the rules for this girl. It makes my accomplishment worthless because I worked 7 long years, lead a troop through four years as SPL and Jasm and  [edit] they GAVE it to her because of her gender. That makes the award meaningless because they just given it away. 

If you work 80 hours a week for your money and I work 2 hours a week for the same pay is that fair? Do you not feel cheated? Cmon. 

Oddly, that's what nearly every ambitious girl, atheist, (and in the late 90's, newly minted homosexual), and 18+ year-old says. They would like to be recognized for their work.

Their claim is that, right now, you are being cheated, because your badge doesn't recognized what you've accomplished. It recognizes what you've accomplished, but only while being of a particular identity. The it's saying, "You did pretty good, for a boy."

(Before anyone balks. Check that this isn't what you'd say about a GS/USA Gold awardee.)

This isn't merely BSA's fault. GS/USA abandoned the "First Class Scout" award. For all of Mike Saurbaugh's pleasant reminisces about working with the campfire program, he's never highlighted a WoLeHo awardee. NESA never broadened its scope to honor Venturing Silver or Sea Scout Quatermaster awardees.

We Eagles are one of a pantheon of folks who worked at leadership development and building their character, but NOBODY in our organization would tell us that. In a sense, these girls are finally putting clothes on the emperor.

Edited December 15, 2017 by qwazse

[NJCubScouter]

I think we need to remember a couple of things here:

1.   The BSA, as far as I know, has not responded to Ms. Ireland's request.  Therefore, any comments along the line about how National has devalued the Eagle, made it worthless, cheated previous recipients, etc. etc., are incorrect, because National has not done anything on this subject.  Personally I think National is going to reject her request for all of the reasons that have been discussed in this forum.  But whatever may happen, it hasn't happened yet and we shouldn't treat it as if it has.

2.   Let's please remember that this is a 16-year-old girl we are talking about, and not just some hypothetical 16-year-old girl, but a specific named 16-year-old girl.  She is not some evil monster.  She is an ambitious person, and she is asking for something that almost everybody agrees she shouldn't get, but it does not make her a bad person.  I admire what she has done, at least up to this point, even though I disagree with some of what she has said and I disagree with her recent request.

Edited December 15, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Hawkwin]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Sydney takes scouting and the skills involved so seriously that she has sought membership in troops outside the U.S. She is a full, dues-paying member of a troop in Ontario, Canada — one of dozens of countries with co-ed scouting. In fact, Sydney recently earned the Chief Scout's Award, Canada's highest honor in scouting, and has the badge and a letter of congratulations from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to show for it.

But she is determined to become an Eagle Scout as a full member of Troop 414, reaching the top achievement of an organization she has been part of nearly her entire life.

 

Based on this, then I can certainly see a way for BSA to allow for "transfer credits" (and they might already do this) for any Scout that earned "stuff" outside of the United States but still within Scouting to obtain Eagle.

For example, if she has satisfied the exact same leadership requirements in Canadian Scouts, then there is no reason IMO that she need duplicate them in BSA.

 

I would assume that we would extend the same courtesy to a male scout that currently lives in England but that transfers to the United States at 16. Credit for requirements already accomplished.

Such doesn't cheapen what anyone else had to do.

Hawkwin

Who received quite a bit of transfer college credit for his military service - cutting over a year from his degree.

[Eagle94-A1]

Guide to Advancement section 5.0.4.0 Covers "Youth From Other Countries," but considering she is a US citizen, I do not think it will apply. BUT if BSA decides to allow her credit for any advancement up to Life, then that is their loophole.

[Hawkwin]

34 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Guide to Advancement section 5.0.4.0 Covers "Youth From Other Countries"

Thanks, I assumed there would be a rule on such.

Seems like there is a good process for such a request, the hiccup of course will be,

 

Quote

 

Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here, may register in a BSA unit and participate in advancement.

 

There really isn't a policy for scouts who reside in the United States but who are Scouts in another country. That being stated, it would appear that the spirit of the rule still applies in that BSA wishes to honor and recognize achievement (excluding Eagle) of current scouts where they participated and in and acquired advancement in foreign scouting.

 

If she had not being actively involved in Canadian Scouts (or whatever they call themselves), then a firm "no" would seem to apply. Since she has done everything a male scout from Canada has done and since we would likely recognize his achievements, then it stands to reason we could, and probably should, do the same for her.

 

[NJCubScouter]

As people have said, that rule is for people from other countries, and it specifically says so, so I don't think that's going to help her.

[skeptic]

The old guard protectors of the Eagle award and past history and traditions are holding onto their own glory.  Obdurate objections to a changing world will not do anybody any good, and may give some psychologists and ulcer doctors more work.  

Move with the times and find ways to make current challenges fit your involvement, hopefully to the overall benefit of all.  As noted, life is seldom always fair.  Whatever comes from all this, it can be positive or negative, however one chooses to view it.  

How will this affect any of us as time goes by.  Our own Scouting accomplishments will not be nullified by new directions and changes in options.  Just as in sports, the rules change over time.  You cannot ever compare records from a century ago in baseball, for example, as the rules and equipment are different.  I never did a project as it was not yet required, but I did have to learn signalling and splicing among other skills.  As has been noted, Arthur Eldred never had to earn First Aid and it seems from looking at his sash and such that he did not, though First Aid to Animals is there.  For that matter, he also did not have to earn Life or Star, as a few others of the very earliest also did not have to do.  Does that change their place in BSA history?  

 

As I have "preached" a few times already, we either accept the inevitable and make it the best we can with the new parameters, or we choose to leave it to the new order.  But letting it eat at us because we disagree, and bad mouthing the new order probably is not our most Scouting choice.

 

[an_old_DC]

@RememberSchiff thanks for the link. I must be thinking of some other girl, who probably doesn't have an attorney father and PR team.