Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

[EmberMike]

17 minutes ago, Back Pack said:

No. She has to start at Scout and work her way up. She has to abide by the same rules I did. She joins and earns Scout and then has to earn the other ranks. You can’t get credit for work before joining just like webelos and non scouts can’t get credit now. The requirements say “while a scout” which means a USA registered scout. If you bend the rules for her you need to bend them for everyone else. Why is she so special? 

That's not accurate. Credit can be given for requirements fulfilled in other scouting organizations. It doesn't have to be "while a USA registered scout." 

If they do it for boys, why not do it for her? Why is she so special to not get the same consideration any boy from a non-US scouting org would get? 

[TAHAWK]

Just asking.  If I do something a  Girl Scout in Mexico that wouls have fulfilled a BSA requirement if done as a Boy Scout, may (forget "can") credit be given for passing the requirement for Boy Scouting?

 

All requirements for the Scout rank must be completed as a member of a troop.

The requirements for the Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks may be worked on simultaneously; however, these ranks must be earned in sequence.

Notes: For Varsity Scouts working on Boy Scout requirements, replace “troop” with “team”

 

2.0.0.1 It Is a Method—Not an End in Itself Advancement is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is one of several methods designed to help unit leadership carry out the aims and mission of the Boy Scouts of America. See the inside front cover for text of the aims and mission.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by TAHAWK

[Stosh]

12 hours ago, EmberMike said:

That's not accurate. Credit can be given for requirements fulfilled in other scouting organizations. It doesn't have to be "while a USA registered scout." 

If they do it for boys, why not do it for her? Why is she so special to not get the same consideration any boy from a non-US scouting org would get? 

They can do so as a Lone Scout.  Who's to say they aren't a Lone Scout living abroad, or in a rural area, or homeschooled, or a number of other situations prescribed by the program.  All these "exceptions being mentioned were extended to males, not females.  Exceptions mentioned for males will NOW be available to females, but nothing says they will be grandfathered in.  Males could not grandfather in Cub Scouts if they joined at 10 even if they had a book showing progress he had done independently on his own while homeschooling. 

However it would seem that there are those that wish Ms. Ireland an exception to the exception that was not given to males previously.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Stosh

[EmberMike]

53 minutes ago, Stosh said:

...Exceptions mentioned for males will NOW be available to females, but nothing says they will be grandfathered in...

It seems far more likely that they would be grandfathered in, though. You are right, nothing says that this will be the case. But I can't imagine why the BSA would say that only non-US scouting org experience beginning in 2019 would count for girls, while simultaneously still allowing the exact same experience from boys to count towards rank. 

If they're going to present this as an opportunity for girls to have the same scouting experience in the BSA that boys can have, it would be extremely odd to then put these kinds of added limitations on the girls program. 

If anyone has any concerns about exceptions for girls making it too easy for them, I would hope that this kind of "no grandfathering" policy would be just as concerning, recognizing that this would have the exact same effect in reverse by making it unfairly more difficult for transfer scouts who are female to pick up their scouting experience from another organization in the BSA. 

54 minutes ago, Stosh said:

...Males could not grandfather in Cub Scouts if they joined at 10 even if they had a book showing progress he had done independently on his own while homeschooling...

I do think that Sydney's BSA experience should be considered, but not for requirement credit. She doesn't need that anyway, she has comparable experience in Scouts Canada and the documented requirements she completed in that organization.

I don't care if she has a BSA handbook with sign-offs on requirements. It's irrelevant when she does have a Chief Scout's Award from Scouts Canada, officially and with proper credit and documentation that is acceptable in giving credit to male scouts who transfer from SC to BSA. 

The exception she needs and that I support her receiving is related only to time. Either time now, allowing her to start in the BSA officially before 2019, or time beyond 18 to finish up her Eagle, IF she is able to complete requirements and ranks OR receive transfer credit for them from acceptable experience in Scouts Canada. 

[Stosh]

By hook or by crook they will make it work regardless of any rules or regulations that have existed in the past or exist now.  They make up the rules as they go all the time, why would this be different.  After all it's a whole new world out there and all BSA has to do is insinuate that the BSA4G Eagle is the same as the BSA Eagle.  After all the requirements for BSA4G can be set up any way they wish, there is nothing on paper now and it only has to appear to be the same as the BSHB as it reads now.

Male Lone Scouts couldn't grandfather in previous experiences, but nothing says, BSA4 G can't, it's a whole new program and with getting eagle the only goal, what difference does it make what the rules are.  I'm thinking that at least on paper there's going to be Cub Scouts (co-ed), Boy Scouts (male), BSA4G (female), and Venturing (co-ed) on paper and then turn a blind eye to what the units actually do.

[EmberMike]

15 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Male Lone Scouts couldn't grandfather in previous experiences...

I've been trying to dig up more info on this but I'm coming up mostly empty.

What's confusing is why previous experience outside of the US wouldn't count towards requirements as a Lone Scout, but can count towards requirements as a Pack/Troop member. The requirements don't change much or at all (especially at Troop level) for Lone Scouts. So in a hypothetical situation where a non-US transfer scout takes his previous experience to his council and asks for the same review of requirements that any other non-US transfer scout would ask for, the Lone Scout gets rejected while the Pack/Troop scout gets some requirements accepted? Is that accurate? 

[TAHAWK]

1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

It seems far more likely that they would be grandfathered in, though. You are right, nothing says that this will be the case. But I can't imagine why the BSA would say that only non-US scouting org experience beginning in 2019 would count for girls, while simultaneously still allowing the exact same experience from boys to count towards rank. 

If they're going to present this as an opportunity for girls to have the same scouting experience in the BSA that boys can have, it would be extremely odd to then put these kinds of added limitations on the girls program. 

If anyone has any concerns about exceptions for girls making it too easy for them, I would hope that this kind of "no grandfathering" policy would be just as concerning, recognizing that this would have the exact same effect in reverse by making it unfairly more difficult for transfer scouts who are female to pick up their scouting experience from another organization in the BSA. 

I do think that Sydney's BSA experience should be considered, but not for requirement credit. She doesn't need that anyway, she has comparable experience in Scouts Canada and the documented requirements she completed in that organization.

I don't care if she has a BSA handbook with sign-offs on requirements. It's irrelevant when she does have a Chief Scout's Award from Scouts Canada, officially and with proper credit and documentation that is acceptable in giving credit to male scouts who transfer from SC to BSA. 

The exception she needs and that I support her receiving is related only to time. Either time now, allowing her to start in the BSA officially before 2019, or time beyond 18 to finish up her Eagle, IF she is able to complete requirements and ranks OR receive transfer credit for them from acceptable experience in Scouts Canada. 

 

The Chief Scout's  Award is an admirable achievement that is not comparable to Eagle.  

1. Have earned the Pathfinder award.
2. Be currently qualified in Standard First Aid.
3. Have earned at least one challenge badge in each of the 7 Challenge Badge Categories.
4. Hold the World Conservation Award.
5. Investigate Scouts Canada's involvement in World Scouting. Present your findings in an interesting way to your Patrol, Troop or other group. Your presentation should include information on the following:
   1. Scouts Canada's involvement with:
      • The Canadian Scout Brotherhood Fund
      • World Jamborees
      • The World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM)
   2. The purpose and location of the World Scouting Bureau
   3. The current World Scouting membership and how Canada's membership compares to that of other countries.
6. Develop yourself further in each Activity Area by:
   1. Designing a challenging program with a Scouter which includes the requirements to excel in a component of each Activity Area. Citizenship must include providing at least 30 hours of leadership to others. These hours are in addition to the hours required for the Citizenship Activity Area. If at all possible, provide this service outside of Scouting.
   2. Offering your plans and goals for discussion and approval to your Court of Honour and Troop Scouter prior to beginning.
   3. Reporting to and being evaluated by the Court of Honour and Troop Scouter on your ongoing progress.

Source: Scouts Canada at:  http://greatertoronto.scouts.ca/ca/chief-scouts-award

 

I  am having trouble finding where BSA gives "credit" to anyone for achieving their association's highest, or any other, rack.

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

I've been trying to dig up more info on this but I'm coming up mostly empty.

What's confusing is why previous experience outside of the US wouldn't count towards requirements as a Lone Scout, but can count towards requirements as a Pack/Troop member. The requirements don't change much or at all (especially at Troop level) for Lone Scouts. So in a hypothetical situation where a non-US transfer scout takes his previous experience to his council and asks for the same review of requirements that any other non-US transfer scout would ask for, the Lone Scout gets rejected while the Pack/Troop scout gets some requirements accepted? Is that accurate? 

A registered Lone Scout anywhere in the world (including the USA) qualifies for all requirements and has nothing to do with any unit participation. That's why they call it Lone Scout.  Ms. Ireland was not a Lone Scout, didn't qualify for it, but if she now registers as a Lone Scout, she should be able to get eagle.

[EmberMike]

4 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

The Chief Scout's  Award is an admirable achievement that is not comparable to Eagle...

...I  am having trouble finding where BSA gives "credit" to anyone for achieving their association's highest, or any other, rack.

It's a relevant award that bears many similar requirements a scout would go through on the trail to Eagle. It's not the same, for sure. But it's a service-oriented leadership and outdoor skills award that has requirements that would match well with some BSA requirements. 

Regarding the transfer of rank/requirements credit from a non-BSA organization, from the Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures book:

"A youth from another country who either temporarily resides in, or has moved permanently to, the United States may join a BSA unit and participate in the BSA advancement program. He must present to the council service center available evidence of membership and advancement level from his previous association. Having done this, he then must appear before the district or council advancement committee with at least one member of the receiving unit committee present to review his previous advancement work and to determine which BSA rank he is qualified to receive. This policy applies to all ranks except Eagle Scout. The BSA rank of Eagle Scout cannot automatically be considered the equivalent of another associations highest rank. A Boy Scout who holds his associations highest rank could qualify for the rank of Life Scout, and the district or council advancement committee should prescribe certain merit badges for him to earn before consideration for the rank of Eagle Scout. He must also fulfill all other requirements for the rank of Eagle Scout.

This policy also applies to members of the BSA who, while living abroad, have earned advancement in another Scouting association."

[TAHAWK]

Quite different requirements.  E.G.  Lack the required MBs. No POR requirement. Does no require Life, which is quite different than Pathfinder.

Example of credit given?  I really did try to find one.  My Googlefoo failed.

[EmberMike]

2 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Quite different requirements.  E.G.  Lack the required MBs. No POR requirement. Does no require Life, which is quite different than Pathfinder.

Example of credit given?  I really did try to find one.  My Googlefoo failed.

Can we at least agree that there is crossover in subject matter? Leadership, athletics, outdoor skills, family life, personal development, environment, citizenship, first aid, service hours, etc. Getting the Chief Scout's Award hits a lot of the checkboxes for BSA reqs. It's different, sure. But having it would likely qualify someone who joined the BSA to cross off at least a few requirements. 

I don't know of a specific example of the credit being given. But it's in the advancement committee policies, so it can happen. I suspect it's open to a bit of interpretation by whichever local council rep gets the task of trying to figure out which requirement from another scouting org translates to which requirement in a BSA book. 

I did, however, find an article about Sydney Ireland which states that she is counting on her past experience to count for something as a BSA member. So that at least confirms that she will be seeking credit for previous achievements. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by EmberMike

[HelpfulTracks]

I will preface this by saying I am not advocating, nor am okay with many of the "short-cuts" that I am seeing advocated for Miss Ireland.

However, it appears that some are certainly advocating, or at least okay with, that approach.

So, if some feel strongly about "cutting some red tape" then why not put our own BSA Ventures at the head of that list? Would it not make more sense to give THAT break to some enterprising 16 or 17 year Venturer, who has earned, or near earning, her Summit Award?

I have never seen any reference to Miss Ireland being in a Crew, nor have I seen her in photos wearing any uniform other the Scouts Canada. She travel approximately 600 miles to Canada for a Scouting experience. I can only image how many Crews are within 600 miles of her home.

I would much rather see someone who has officially been part of BSA, who has supported the program and worked within the system, be given a break before a young lady who apparently has not joined a Crew, but rather joined Scouting in another Country. It makes more sense that two organizations (Crews and Troops) that already accept requirements completed in one program to count in the other.

Now, the rules are clear about the ability to double count across Venturing and Scouting, it can only be done when you are a CURRENT registered member of both units. So I doubt it will happen, and I think that is the best policy.

So why on earth would we be willing to count "un-official" work done as an "un-official member" before we would count official work done as a member of BSA in a Crew? Why would we be willing to accept work done in another Scouting association before we would be willing to accept work done in our own?

The ever growing drumbeat to cut Miss Ireland a break because she has worked so hard, seems to be very misplaced, when you consider the thousands of young women Venturing who have worked just as hard, who have supported BSA and have done so with trying to give the organization a public relations black eye.

Edited January 15, 2018 by HelpfulTracks

[TAHAWK]

Sure,  crossover.   

The language that you quote, from the document Advancement Committee. Policy and Procedures, has been superseded as of 2013 by the Guide to Advancement.  That document says, currently:

 5.0.4.0 Youth From Other Countries

Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here,  may register in a BSA unit and participate in advancement. If progress from a foreign Scouting association is to be considered and applied to BSA requirements, then the foreign Scout must meet in person (or over electronic media) with members of the council or district advancement committee, along with at least one adult leader or committee member of the receiving unit. Previous advancement work is reviewed to determine the BSA rank—up to, but not including Eagle Scout rank—the youth is qualified to receive,

. . .

This procedure applies to all ranks except Eagle Scout, which is not considered equivalent to any other association’s rank. If it can be established that Life rank has been achieved, then the council or district advancement committee can determine which BSA merit badges may be awarded based on previous effort and experiences that meet BSA merit badge requirements as written. This may leave a number of additional badges to earn— required or not—to achieve Eagle. Requirements for active participation, position of responsibility, Scout spirit, the service project, and the unit leader conference must be completed in a BSA unit. This procedure also applies to members of the BSA who, while living abroad, have earned advancement in another Scouting association."

Boy Scouts of America, Guide to Advancement (2017)

 

So, some requirements along the Trail may be , as you say, be crossed off for some youth.

[TAHAWK]

 

"I have never seen any reference to Miss Ireland being in a Crew, nor have I seen her in photos wearing any uniform other the Scouts Canada. "

Is she now a U.S. resident?  Even a temporary resident?  Or a visitor who has not established residency in the U.S.

 

I note she was "briefly" a Scout in South Africa.  Really gets around.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Edited January 15, 2018 by TAHAWK

[EmberMike]

12 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

...So why on earth would we be willing to count "un-official" work done as an "un-official member" before we would count official work done as a member of BSA in a Crew? Why would we be willing to accept work done in another Scouting association before we would be willing to accept work done in our own?

The ever growing drumbeat to cut Miss Ireland a break because she has worked so hard, seems to be very misplaced, when you consider the thousands of young women Venturing who have worked just as hard, who have supported BSA and have done so with trying to give the organization a public relations black eye.

 

Do those crew members want to work toward Eagle? If they do, I'd encourage them to do the same Sydney and see if there is a path for them to do so. 

For the record, I don't advocate for her being given direct credit for work/requirements done un-officially. I support her being given requirement/rank transfer credit for things done in Scouts Canada officially, same as any boy could potentially receive. 

I strongly disagree that she was trying to give the BSA a "public relations black eye." Just because you disagree with her viewpoint (one that clearly many in the BSA happen to agree, myself included), publicly voicing that viewpoint doesn't mean she was intentionally trying to harm the BSA. I think she did what we encourage all of our kids to do; Stand up for what you think is right, speak up if you feel something is unjust.