Stosh Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 After all is said and done, what about all the hundreds of gals out there that didn't have deep pocket dad's resources to put into one's scouting career, didn't find a rogue pack/troop to smooth her way, that didt follow the rules and will miss out on Eagle? So lets look at what's different, wealthy background, rogue pack, rogue troop, a few bent rules, and maybe an extension of time, all those things that will allow Ms. Ireland beat out all the other competition that didn't exist because they chose do it in an honest way. We'll see how truly gracious Ms. Ireland is in her own words, that aren't paraphrased by her father. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelpfulTracks Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, EmberMike said: They do make exceptions for people with great stories. I think that's what I don't get in a lot of the arguments against this. She wouldn't be the first to get an extension. She wouldn't be the first to (potentially) transfer rank requirement credit to BSA from Canada, if that is even something she's considering doing (I haven't seen anywhere her saying she would do that). Would this all be considered "special treatment"? Sure. But it's not special only to her, as plenty of boys have had these kinds of exceptions made for them. The one thing that might happen that of course would be unique to her would be to be granted permission to start in the BSA officially before her gender is allowed to officially join. That's unique to her for obvious reasons. Everything else, and the various paths she has to Eagle, could potentially be done using no new exceptions and nothing that National hasn't done already for other scouts. If National says next week that she's free to join officially, and if my understanding of the story is correct and she is currently 16, she can still make it by 18. First, by it very nature this is unlike any exception ever given to a boy. Second, I have seen exceptions for disabilities, and for time lost for extreme medical conditions. I have heard for exceptions for time lost for kids coming from very abusive homes and extreme poverty, i.e. homeless. Are you seriously comparing those exceptions to Miss Ireland's situation?!? Edited January 14, 2018 by HelpfulTracks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberMike Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Stosh said: After all is said and done, what about all the hundreds of gals out there that didn't have deep pocket dad's resources to put into one's scouting career, didn't find a rogue pack/troop to smooth her way, that didt follow the rules and will miss out on Eagle? So lets look at what's different, wealthy background, rogue pack, rogue troop, a few bent rules, and maybe an extension of time, all those things that will allow Ms. Ireland beat out all the other competition that didn't exist because they chose do it in an honest way. We'll see how truly gracious Ms. Ireland is in her own words, that aren't paraphrased by her father. She doesn't need any benefit she gained to join now and earn Eagle. She might benefit from her awards in Scouts Canada to check off some requirements in her BSA book, but the rogue troop, her dad, his money, none of that is going to give her anything she needs to get through the remaining requirements now and finish. Would you seriously hold it against her that she had a pack and troop that allowed her to tag along and do what the boys were doing? Even if it doesn't benefit her at all when it comes to her standing in the BSA when she is able to officially join? Edited January 14, 2018 by EmberMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberMike Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said: First, by it very nature this is unlike any exception ever give to a boy. Second, I have seen exceptions for disabilities, and time lost for extreme medical conditions. I have heard for exceptions for time lost for kids coming from very abusive homes and extreme poverty, i.e. homeless. Are you seriously comparing those exceptions to Miss Ireland's situation?!? Extensions aren't granted exclusively for disabilities and abuse. Pretty convenient to only mention those exceptions to make your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I have already put my prediction out there on the forum, even got sent to my room for trying to explain it so I'm going to just leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelpfulTracks Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Just now, EmberMike said: Extensions aren't granted exclusively for disabilities and abuse. Pretty convenient to only mention those exceptions to make your argument. Not convenient, Just the ones I have seen and heard of. But if you can point some actual exceptions that have been granted and that don't fall under those categories, then by all means, please do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 hours ago, EmberMike said: I'm not saying she earned MBs and rank. She completed requirements, but as I stated, she was not recognized with badge awards for said MBs and ranks. I would, however, argue that given her history within the BSA program (even if unofficially), and her awards with Scouts Canada, she could be granted an exception and given some earned credit towards rank in the BSA, which would make it more feasible that she could actually reach Eagle rank when she is able to officially join. Sounds accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberMike Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 The application for an extension states, "“If a youth foresees that, due to no fault or choice of his own, he will be unable to complete the Eagle Scout rank requirements before age 18, he may apply for a limited time extension." Personally, I only know of two extensions given, one for medical (hospitalization) and one for something military-related. From the Scouting Magazine website they list these as some considerations for extensions: Hospital stay, disabling injury, significant employment conflict, relocation, family emergency, natural disaster, severe and/or unexpected weather, unforeseen actions of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberMike Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, TAHAWK said: Sounds accurate. I want to believe that you're agreeing with me, but I'm suspicious. It is accurate, though. She wouldn't be the first to get credit for previous scouting experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 11 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said: Not convenient, Just the ones I have seen and heard of. But if you can point some actual exceptions that have been granted and that don't fall under those categories, then by all means, please do. I know of only one. A troop folded and went to Trails Life. It took the Scout and his brothers 3 months to find another troop that met their needs. He was on a VERY tight schedule due to A) troop folding and trying to find another troop and B) some troop irregularities. Those were not found out until AFTER he transferred and was going for his Life BOR. Board had to reconvene so that he could complete 1 of the new requirements and he earned Life at 17y 7mos. Long story short, old troop A) added age requirements to the ranks and B) didn't update advancement requirements. Whatever the requirements were for Scout through Life in the book they bought when they joined the troop was the requirements they used. He asked for, and received a 30 day extension. An aside, I wish I would have known about that prior to his BOR. The requirement, use EDGE to teach one of a series of specific skills was met when my son visited the troop. Glad they folded before my son joined them. They were his #1 choice. (an aside, I wish I would have known about that prior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, EmberMike said: I want to believe that you're agreeing with me, but I'm suspicious. It is accurate, though. She wouldn't be the first to get credit for previous scouting experience. Oh yee of little trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelpfulTracks Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, EmberMike said: The application for an extension states, "“If a youth foresees that, due to no fault or choice of his own, he will be unable to complete the Eagle Scout rank requirements before age 18, he may apply for a limited time extension." Personally, I only know of two extensions given, one for medical (hospitalization) and one for something military-related. From the Scouting Magazine website they list these as some considerations for extensions: Hospital stay, disabling injury, significant employment conflict, relocation, family emergency, natural disaster, severe and/or unexpected weather, unforeseen actions of others. TO continue where you left off. When a time extension is requested, the Scout should continue working on the requirements as processing occurs. In most cases, for a request to be considered the following five tests must be met. 1. The member joined or rejoined—or became active again after a period of inactivity*—in time to complete all requirements before turning 18. Miss Ireland would not qualify under the first test alone. Edited January 14, 2018 by HelpfulTracks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelpfulTracks Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 9 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said: I know of only one. A troop folded and went to Trails Life. It took the Scout and his brothers 3 months to find another troop that met their needs. He was on a VERY tight schedule due to A) troop folding and trying to find another troop and B) some troop irregularities. Those were not found out until AFTER he transferred and was going for his Life BOR. Board had to reconvene so that he could complete 1 of the new requirements and he earned Life at 17y 7mos. Long story short, old troop A) added age requirements to the ranks and B) didn't update advancement requirements. Whatever the requirements were for Scout through Life in the book they bought when they joined the troop was the requirements they used. He asked for, and received a 30 day extension. That sounds both reasonable and in accordance with the exception rules. Adults made a decision to fold a unit, adults created irregularities. Both for a Scout that was previously registered and was pursuing an award he was eligible for. The exception was tightly time limited and the youth previously registered in time to complete them. The exception rules are broad but pretty clear that Miss Ireland would not fall into the category to legitimately be awarded and exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 7 hours ago, EmberMike said: She will have started by the time she can join, and she'll still be youth age. Sure she'll be 17, but it's not like she hasn't been a scout all this time. Surely some of her experience in the Scouts Canada program would transfer credit for reqs over to the BSA program. No one is saying to make it easier for her. Just to give her a chance to maybe finish the requirements and make her case for an extension on time allowed. There's no precedent for this kind of thing. And it also doesn't have to be a Pandora's Box as @HelpfulTracks mentioned. This girl is unique, she's been in and around Scouting her whole life. She's active in other scouting organizations. Maybe this would set a precedent for other girls in the same situation, but how many girls could we really be talking about, who have the relevant experience she does? Can't be more than a handful. Let her try it. She's proven herself resourceful, motivated, smart, and certainly brave. All qualities I'd like to see in any Eagle Scout. I think she's earned the right to at least apply for an exception/extension and let National hear her out on it. No. She has to start at Scout and work her way up. She has to abide by the same rules I did. She joins and earns Scout and then has to earn the other ranks. You can’t get credit for work before joining just like webelos and non scouts can’t get credit now. The requirements say “while a scout” which means a USA registered scout. If you bend the rules for her you need to bend them for everyone else. Why is she so special? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 6 hours ago, EmberMike said: She earned the Chief Scout's Award in Scouts Canada, but completed merit badges and rank requirements in the BSA without badge recognition. Then let her get Canada’s highest rank. She’s not a USA scout. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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