Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

[EmberMike]

12 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

I note she was "briefly" a Scout in South Africa.  Really gets around.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Not sure what you're implying here, but I hope it has something to do with this topic. Surely her being in the fortunate position of coming from a family that has the means to travel a lot is not a bad thing, or definitely not something that should be held against her in this discussion, right? 

[HelpfulTracks]

12 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

 

"I have never seen any reference to Miss Ireland being in a Crew, nor have I seen her in photos wearing any uniform other the Scouts Canada. "

Is she now a U.S. resident?  Even a temporary resident?  Or a visitor who has not established residency in the U.S.

 

I note she was "briefly" a Scout in South Africa.  Really gets around.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Touché, I missed the photo of her as an unofficial Cub.

I know the question of citizenship is rhetorical, but to my understanding she was born here in the Good ol' US of A.

 

[HelpfulTracks]

6 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

Do those crew members want to work toward Eagle? If they do, I'd encourage them to do the same Sydney and see if there is a path for them to do so. 

For the record, I don't advocate for her being given direct credit for work/requirements done un-officially. I support her being given requirement/rank transfer credit for things done in Scouts Canada officially, same as any boy could potentially receive.

Actually, no Crew members cannot count work done unless they were currently registered as Scout. So those young women cannot transfer that effort (with a few very specific exceptions). Once they are allowed to join a Troop any work done in one organziation counts toward the other, with the exception of Eagle/Summit projects.

I strongly disagree that she was trying to give the BSA a "public relations black eye." Just because you disagree with her viewpoint (one that clearly many in the BSA happen to agree, myself included), publicly voicing that viewpoint doesn't mean she was intentionally trying to harm the BSA. I think she did what we encourage all of our kids to do; Stand up for what you think is right, speak up if you feel something is unjust. 

To the contrary, I support her viewpoint of allowing girls in Scouting and have done so for a while now. I DO NOT support her tactics.

Rather than work with Scouters that agreed with her she has called out BSA as discriminatory. Rather than join Venturing and making her voice heard through the forums BSA provides she has worked from the outside starting petitions. Rather than support BSA though Venturing she has traveled hundreds miles to go outside of the country to join foreign Scouting associations. She has locked arms with NOW who have called for discontinued federal support (whatever that means) until her demands are met.

Regardless if she was making an effort or not to give BSA a black eye, she certainly has done things that have done so in many peoples minds. I do not think that is by accident. All to often in today's society, when people disagree the immediate fall back is to accuse them of bigotry, prejudice, sexism, etc. The language has been weaponized to achieve desired outcomes, even when the label does not apply.

 

[EmberMike]

6 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Actually, no Crew members cannot count work done unless they were currently registered as Scout. So those young women cannot transfer that effort (with a few very specific exceptions). Once they are allowed to join a Troop any work done in one organziation counts toward the other, with the exception of Eagle/Summit projects.

 

What I was getting at was that if a female crew member, who previously could not join a troop and work towards Eagle, now wants to do that since the rules changed, I would encourage them to do the same as Sydney. Join a troop, work towards Eagle, and if they don't have enough time to finish, apply for the extension or petition the BSA to let them start now. 

There is nothing that I'm advocating for Sydney that I wouldn't also advocate for when it comes to any female scout who wants to work toward Eagle Scout rank. 

[qwazse]

3 hours ago, EmberMike said:

Do those crew members want to work toward Eagle? If they do, I'd encourage them to do the same Sydney and see if there is a path for them to do so. 

.... 

Again this is where we part ways.

Firstly, I've never met a Venturer - at least one who was never a Boy Scout - who would want to work toward Eagle. The lion share don't want to work toward any recognition - a big problem with the program. The ones who do want to be recognized, want to be recognized for earning their award (be it Silver or Summit)  that already has an Eagle on the device. IMHO, NESA needs to either broaden its scope or go away. We have created an class of boys who are actually deluded into thinking that their rank is better than Venturing and Sea Scout awards -- (pardon the report from boots on the ground).

I would not ask anyone to join a troop merely for rank advancement. I certainly would not give any venturer of mine up to a troop so they can earn an award attained by 7% of Boy Scouts instead of an award attained by mere fractions of a percent of Venturers. And I certainly would not approve the application of any Venturing female who things that by signing on this year she may count it as tenure in a troop next year!

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Again this is where we part ways.

Firstly, I've never met a Venturer - at least one who was never a Boy Scout - who would want to work toward Eagle. The lion share don't want to work toward any recognition - a big problem with the program. The ones who do want to be recognized, want to be recognized for earning their award (be it Silver or Summit)  that already has an Eagle on the device. IMHO, NESA needs to either broaden its scope or go away. We have created an class of boys who are actually deluded into thinking that their rank is better than Venturing and Sea Scout awards -- (pardon the report from boots on the ground).

I would not ask anyone to join a troop merely for rank advancement. I certainly would not give any venturer of mine up to a troop so they can earn an award attained by 7% of Boy Scouts instead of an award attained by mere fractions of a percent of Venturers. And I certainly would not approve the application of any Venturing female who things that by signing on this year she may count it as tenure in a troop next year!

We are not talking about the general populace here, we are talking about the rare exceptions that are sure to come along looking for special considerations.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

 IMHO, NESA needs to either broaden its scope or go away. We have created an class of boys who are actually deluded into thinking that their rank is better than Venturing and Sea Scout awards -- (pardon the report from boots on the ground).

I would not ask anyone to join a troop merely for rank advancement. I certainly would not give any venturer of mine up to a troop so they can earn an award attained by 7% of Boy Scouts instead of an award attained by mere fractions of a percent of Venturers. And I certainly would not approve the application of any Venturing female who things that by signing on this year she may count it as tenure in a troop next year!

How many Eagles in 2016? Don't know about Summit, but there were 22-25 Quartermasters in 2016 if memory serves. As an Eagle and former Sea Scout (Ordinary rank) I can tell you QM was a heck of a lot harder than Eagle.

[qwazse]

16 minutes ago, Stosh said:

We are not talking about the general populace here, we are talking about the rare exceptions that are sure to come along looking for special considerations.

The rank is a rare exception. The EBOR is a special consideration.

What folks in this thread are talking about is trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. The rules have been written so that it cannot be done.

Either chisel out the corners (i.e., change the rules) and welcome the peg, or go home. Cutting corners via GTA acrobatics won't hold.

[HelpfulTracks]

8 hours ago, qwazse said:

Firstly, I've never met a Venturer - at least one who was never a Boy Scout - who would want to work toward Eagle. The lion share don't want to work toward any recognition - a big problem with the program. The ones who do want to be recognized, want to be recognized for earning their award (be it Silver or Summit)  that already has an Eagle on the device. IMHO, NESA needs to either broaden its scope or go away. We have created an class of boys who are actually deluded into thinking that their rank is better than Venturing and Sea Scout awards -- (pardon the report from boots on the ground).

I would not ask anyone to join a troop merely for rank advancement. I certainly would not give any venturer of mine up to a troop so they can earn an award attained by 7% of Boy Scouts instead of an award attained by mere fractions of a percent of Venturers. And I certainly would not approve the application of any Venturing female who things that by signing on this year she may count it as tenure in a troop next year!

6 hours ago, qwazse said:

A good enough project for either award gets you 15 minutes of fame. And a military pay bump.

There are already Venturers and Sea Scouts with a silver eagle at the end of their ribbon and a GS Gold award. NESA should shine the spotlight on these champions and give their Eagles something to aspire to.

You have mentioned NESA a few times lately. It has a very negative vibe when you do.

Beyond that, why should NESA broaden it's scope or go away? It is after all, the the National EAGLE SCOUT Association, the alumni group for Eagle Scouts.

Bring other awards under that umbrella does not make sense. It would be like the Stanford alumni association promoting Duke alumni. OR closer to home the Philmont alumni association promoting Northern Tier Alumni. By it's very nature is outside their scope.

There is nothing wrong with Silver/Summit award, I would be proud if my children earn it. But, putting aside its tangled origins, Venturing and its awards, do not have the history behind it that the Eagle award does, in either length or continuity. Because of that I would not expect that it has the cache of the Eagle, but that does not make it any less and honor to earn.

BSA did not have an official alumni association for Eagles for more than 60 years after Scouting started. Venturing (20 years old this year) and it's awards (Silver and not yet 5 year old Summit) have not had the time to mature and grow a critical mass of alumni. Perhaps in the not to distant future it will.

[Stosh]

Over the course of about 13 years of running a Venturing Crew, I had 7 boys Eagle.  Of all the boys with Scouting backgrounds, i.e. dual registered, troop/crew, only one did not Eagle.  I did not have any that earned any Venturing awards.

The boys knew I was dual registered as Venturing/Scouting and respected my promptings to stick with the troop and get their Eagle. I didn't need to pressure any of the boys, we were picking up some of the top scouts in the council and surrounding councils and I didn't really need to push any of them along.  I simply stated my preferences and like I said 7 Eagled, one did not.

[HelpfulTracks]

In some ways Venturing feels pure. Much like what I imagine it was like in the early days of Scouting. The focus is on the activity and less about the formal advancement.

[qwazse]

36 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

... There is nothing wrong with Silver/Summit award, I would be proud if my children earn it. But, putting aside its tangled origins, Venturing and its awards, do not have the history behind it that the Eagle award does, in either length or continuity. Because of that I would not expect that it has the cache of the Eagle, but that does not make it any less and honor to earn.

BSA did not have an official alumni association for Eagles for more than 60 years after Scouting started. Venturing (20 years old this year) and it's awards (Silver and not yet 5 year old Summit) have not had the time to mature and grow a critical mass of alumni. Perhaps in the not to distant future it will.

Some honor. In a girls' mind, these statements say "your Silver will never be as polished as my Eagle."

Then we wonder why directing a girl towards Venturing Silver comes off as hollow.

30 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

In some ways Venturing feels pure. Much like what I imagine it was like in the early days of Scouting. The focus is on the activity and less about the formal advancement.

We still haven't found the right balance with venturers. Activities are fine, but pulling off one event is a limited accomplishment. The requirements for the awards on paper make for a well-rounded individual, but there is no sense in most youths' minds that they need a badge for that. And certainly, if no investment is made in encourage the majority of scouters nation-wide to honor venturing's highest award, maybe crews are right to ignore Silver/Summit as well ... and instead push for girls to be recognized via boy scout rank advancement.

53 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Over the course of about 13 years of running a Venturing Crew, I had 7 boys Eagle.  Of all the boys with Scouting backgrounds, i.e. dual registered, troop/crew, only one did not Eagle.  I did not have any that earned any Venturing awards.

The boys knew I was dual registered as Venturing/Scouting and respected my promptings to stick with the troop and get their Eagle. I didn't need to pressure any of the boys, we were picking up some of the top scouts in the council and surrounding councils and I didn't really need to push any of them along.  I simply stated my preferences and like I said 7 Eagled, one did not.

It seems like I've had a higher percentage of dual-registered boys (about half) not earn Eagle. The Eagles tended to be the more active boys. I didn't prompt one way or the other ... there were plenty of other scouters doing that for me.  I especially enjoyed when Life scouts made the effort to invite the young women in the crew to help with their service projects. I did prompt them about that, and it happened for 1/4 of the projects.

[Eagle94-A1]

Originally, Venturing, except for Sea Scouts, did not have ranks as they do today. They had "Recognitions, " i.e. Bronze, Gold, and Silver Awards, and "Specialty Awards," i.e. Ranger, QUEST, and the Sea Scout Quartermaster Rank. IMHO because advancement has been turned into a  metric by national, and most Venturers could care less about awards and recognitions, folks at national implemented the current ranks. Don't know how popular they are still.

[qwazse]

58 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Originally, Venturing, except for Sea Scouts, did not have ranks as they do today. They had "Recognitions, " i.e. Bronze, Gold, and Silver Awards, and "Specialty Awards," i.e. Ranger, QUEST, and the Sea Scout Quartermaster Rank. IMHO because advancement has been turned into a  metric by national, and most Venturers could care less about awards and recognitions, folks at national implemented the current ranks. Don't know how popular they are still.

@Eagle94-A1, "recognition" remains the method of Venturing, in contrast to "rank advancement" as the method of Boy Scouting. Venturer-Summit are still described as awards, not ranks http://www.venturing.org/awards.html, and the specialty awards are still available and encouraged.

[HelpfulTracks]

8 hours ago, qwazse said:

Some honor. In a girls' mind, these statements say "your Silver will never be as polished as my Eagle."

Then we wonder why directing a girl towards Venturing Silver comes off as hollow.

If you are talking about perceived "prestige" and brand recognition, then you are correct, the Summit does not measure up to the Eagle. That is understandable. The Summit is less than 5 years old, the Silver, it's previous iteration had near a half century gap where it did not exist. The test of time is, in part, what helps create the brand recognition and "prestige". The current award did not exist when some current Venturers first joined the program. It is virtually impossible, and silly for anyone to think, the Summit Award would be able to match the Eagle in those perceived values in such a short time.

But that is part of the problem. As Scouts and Scouters, if brand recognition and "prestige" are how we determine the value of an award and the effort we will expend chasing it we are sending the exact wrong message. While time has helped the Eagle award earn a high place of honor, it is the journey and what it takes to earn that are the foundation of its value. Youth and adults are too busy looking at the shinny object they can put on their shelf or resume and have lost sight of the real value. That is much of the issue I have had with Miss Ireland, her statements clearly show she is concerned with the shinny object, not the foundational value.

If one believes the Silver/Summit Award does not measure up to the Eagle in terms of effort to earn it, then it does not deserve to be seen with the same prestige as the Eagle.

If one considers the Silver/Summit awards  on par with the Eagle in terms of effort, but a hollow offering compared to Eagle, then they are missing the real value of the awards to begin with.

8 hours ago, qwazse said:

We still haven't found the right balance with venturers. Activities are fine, but pulling off one event is a limited accomplishment. The requirements for the awards on paper make for a well-rounded individual, but there is no sense in most youths' minds that they need a badge for that. And certainly, if no investment is made in encourage the majority of scouters nation-wide to honor venturing's highest award, maybe crews are right to ignore Silver/Summit as well ... and instead push for girls to be recognized via boy scout rank advancement.

Why are activities not enough? Why must "accomplishment" be part of the equation? Most Venturers I have met (male and female) are there for the high adventure. In fact a few of the males left Scouting without their Eagle because they were not interested in the advancement, they wanted more activities and less pressure to advance. We do not need to invest anything to get someone to honor any award. And we certainly do no need to push any Scout (male or female) towards advancements as if that is the Holy Grail.

Scouters need to focus on the mission and aims. Let the Scouts determine if they want to advance or not, and support and encourage them in either case.