Using lure of becoming Eagle Scout to recruit Girls

[Stosh]

I love it when the requirements are designed to engage the over zealous SM and Helicopter parents.

Do a project to show one's leadership ability.  The adults work through the paperwork to make sure the boy did it correctly and then require all the boys in the troop to "help" with the project because otherwise half the boys won't show up.  Both management of the task at hand and the real leadership control of the project is done by adults so as to insure the candidates "success".  It's strange how each boy gets credit for one Eagle, but the adults take credit for many more.

The only help my adults and I provide for the Eagle candidates is a required signature.  Otherwise he sinks or swims on his own.  After all, it's HIS Eagle, not mine.  "Mr. Stosh, here's my project proposal do you want to read it?"  "Nope, where do I sign?"  Sounds kinda harsh, but in the end, the boy learns that I trust his judgment and attention to detail.  Never had a boy miss out on Eagle navigating the maze on his own.  Maybe that's why I have so many "mentor" pins.    No, I do not view the project requirement for Eagle as a teaching or learning process.  By the time he gets to that point in his scouting career, he should have already learned all the lessons necessary.  If not, he's not qualified.  If asked, I do provide pointers on doing an EBOR because the anxiety level is a bit higher than at a regular BOR. 

[Snow Owl]

I fear the eagle has already been lightened up significantly.  I have seen many scouts come back from a merit badge colleges (a one day event) with 2 completed merit badges that should take, at minimum, several days if not longer.  something simple like basket weaving maybe but no communications, Law, public health, personal management etc..

I'm not eve going to go into the eagle mills.

We do our scouts a disservice when we given them credit where it has not been properly earned.

[qwazse]

@WisconsinMomma, these girls aren't a product of fiction. I know one SM who's quite proud of the members of his "unofficial troop." I'm suspect there are dozens of such units throughout the country (beyond the one or two that make the papers). We can expect Eagle applications from them by 2020, if not sooner. No telling which one of us will be invited to their board of review.

The value to most girls will be what is involved in earning the award, not the award itself. Like your boys, it's as much about the journey as the destination.

[Back Pack]

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

Or..... my oldest daughter achieved Silver, went to college and is a stay at home mom.  My youngest daughter was valdictorian, got a full ride to a major university, dropped out after a year and a half and is a stay at home mom.  Both will home school their children.  Sometimes bling doesn't mean much.  Depends on what one feels is important.  I am pleased with their accomplishments, 3 great grandchildren!

My dad always says the best adult scouters he knows aren’t Eagle Scouts. Most were guys who didn’t make Eagle and have been driven ever since by that failure. 

[Stosh]

I wouldn't ever consider not getting Eagle a failure.  I was 2nd Class, and yet the mantra I live by is "help other people at all times".  6000+ hours, 6 Red Cross disaster relief operations averaging 3-4 weeks at a time.  Last Monday I went out at 3:00 am, to help an elderly couple struggle through the loss of their home due to a fire.  Tomorrow night I work with my church youth group serving Advent dinner between services.  Last week I dropped off about 300# of squash from my garden at the Salvation Army kitchen.  

Not getting Eagle made no affect on my life.  What Scouting taught did. 

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

The only help my adults and I provide for the Eagle candidates is a required signature.  Otherwise he sinks or swims on his own.  After all, it's HIS Eagle, not mine.  "Mr. Stosh, here's my project proposal do you want to read it?"  "Nope, where do I sign?"  Sounds kinda harsh, but in the end, the boy learns that I trust his judgment and attention to detail.  Never had a boy miss out on Eagle navigating the maze on his own.  Maybe that's why I have so many "mentor" pins.    No, I do not view the project requirement for Eagle as a teaching or learning process.  By the time he gets to that point in his scouting career, he should have already learned all the lessons necessary.  If not, he's not qualified.  If asked, I do provide pointers on doing an EBOR because the anxiety level is a bit higher than at a regular BOR. 

Mr. stosh, I agree with the point your are making, I truly do. But there is something missing. The scout you describe in your post doesn't need any coaching for the EBOR. For any reason. Sounds more like a helicopter Scoutmaster. A lesson for all of us is no matter how old and how experienced we scoutmasters are, we Scoutmasters can keep learning to grow and mature more.

Barry

[WisconsinMomma]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

@WisconsinMomma, these girls aren't a product of fiction. I know one SM who's quite proud of the members of his "unofficial troop." I'm suspect there are dozens of such units throughout the country (beyond the one or two that make the papers). We can expect Eagle applications from them by 2020, if not sooner. No telling which one of us will be invited to their board of review.

The value to most girls will be what is involved in earning the award, not the award itself. Like your boys, it's as much about the journey as the destination.

Here's the thing, I feel that the best thing for me to do is to worry about my kids and our family's Scouting experience, and to care about our Troop and Pack's sustainability, etc.  I have no control over troops who are bending the rules or making up their own stuff, and it doesn't really affect me.   A Scout who is given an Eagle without doing things properly does not hurt my kids experience at all.  My kids work will benefit them, and it's who they become as people, not the plaque on the wall. We agree on that!

If this is happening in my Troop, then it's my concern, otherwise it's not my clowns or circus.   I've got my own clowns! 

[Stosh]

5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Mr. stosh, I agree with the point your are making, I truly do. But there is something missing. The scout you describe in your post doesn't need any coaching for the EBOR. For any reason. Sounds more like a helicopter Scoutmaster. A lesson for all of us is no matter how old and how experienced we scoutmasters are, we Scoutmasters can keep learning to grow and mature more.

Barry

If one were to read more carefully, one would see that the only involvement I have in the process is a bit of EBOR coaching but only if requested by the scout.  One of the things NOT taught by BSA are interview skills.  Sure they sit in front of BOR's all the time to attain rank, but there have been a few over the years that have asked for some assistance in that process when it comes to Eagle because of the extreme formality of the situation.  It is a part of the process NOT covered by any requirement for rank, just a bit of help to get through a situation that hasn't presented itself in prior Scout training.

The accusation that I am a helicopter Scoutmaster is uncalled for and doesn't bode well for a scout is friendly, kind or courteous.  Just another one of those lessons for all of us no matter how old and how experienced we scoutmasters are, we Scoutmasters can keep learning to grow and mature more.

[Eagledad]

11 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Here's the thing, I feel that the best thing for me to do is to worry about my kids and our family's Scouting experience, and to care about our Troop and Pack's sustainability, etc.  I have no control over troops who are bending the rules or making up their own stuff, and it doesn't really affect me.   A Scout who is given an Eagle without doing things properly does not hurt my kids experience at all.  My kids work will benefit them, and it's who they become as people, not the plaque on the wall. We agree on that!

If this is happening in my Troop, then it's my concern, otherwise it's not my clowns or circus.   I've got my own clowns! 

Yes, but based on whose perception of how to guide scouts through the Eagle requirements. I remember you asking how to lead a few MBs classes and your perception was not in line with how most experienced Scoutmasters would do it. So, who will set the standards for your sons. I think this is exactly the concerns are with what folks are calling helicopter parents. I don't know if you fit in that parent description, but your post seem to be a bit centered.

Most of the better Scoutmasters don't base their actions from personal objectives.

This is why I like this forum.

Barry

[WisconsinMomma]

 

Everybody has to start somewhere! 

[Back Pack]

23 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Here's the thing, I feel that the best thing for me to do is to worry about my kids and our family's Scouting experience, and to care about our Troop and Pack's sustainability, etc.  I have no control over troops who are bending the rules or making up their own stuff, and it doesn't really affect me.   A Scout who is given an Eagle without doing things properly does not hurt my kids experience at all.  My kids work will benefit them, and it's who they become as people, not the plaque on the wall. We agree on that!

If this is happening in my Troop, then it's my concern, otherwise it's not my clowns or circus.   I've got my own clowns! 

Yes but if all the other clowns in other circuses are going to a second rate clown school they are cheapening the name of clowns everywhere. Or take American tourists. How many of us cringe and try to change the perceptions of Americans who travel if we only have the attitude of taking care of our own. I agree we should focus on our own circus but we also cannot allow other circuses to degrade the name and reputation of circuses overall.  

[Eagledad]

16 minutes ago, Stosh said:

If one were to read more carefully, one would see that the only involvement I have in the process is a bit of EBOR coaching but only if requested by the scout.  One of the things NOT taught by BSA are interview skills.  Sure they sit in front of BOR's all the time to attain rank, but there have been a few over the years that have asked for some assistance in that process when it comes to Eagle because of the extreme formality of the situation.  It is a part of the process NOT covered by any requirement for rank, just a bit of help to get through a situation that hasn't presented itself in prior Scout training.

The accusation that I am a helicopter Scoutmaster is uncalled for and doesn't bode well for a scout is friendly, kind or courteous.  Just another one of those lessons for all of us no matter how old and how experienced we scoutmasters are, we Scoutmasters can keep learning to grow and mature more.

Stosh, you have posted chapters on your two scouts experience over the years. Your early posts speak of endepth coaching for the one scout. I'm not saying it is wrong, others here do it too. But it will never make sense to me. An Eagle is either ready for the world of adulthood, or he is not. That is my perspective. If a scout is treated unfairly, well then we go from there. 

As for continued maturing, yep.

Barry

2 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

 

Everybody has to start somewhere! 

Good answer.

Barry

Edited December 13, 2017 by Eagledad

[Eagle94-A1]

4 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

 

Everybody has to start somewhere! 

 

Correct. That is why I like folks to step away from Boy Scouts directly from Cub Scouts, observe what is being done, getting trained, and being mentored. Even I stepped away as an ASM when oldest joined, not only because I was a DL, but also observe troop dynamics and learn how things are doen in the troop. And this is from someone with years of experience, and has  served as an ASM previously, and was a training chairman. I had to step back at times and remember it is  not Cub Scouts that first year.

[qwazse]

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Here's the thing, I feel that the best thing for me to do is to worry about my kids and our family's Scouting experience, and to care about our Troop and Pack's sustainability, etc.  I have no control over troops who are bending the rules or making up their own stuff, and it doesn't really affect me.   A Scout who is given an Eagle without doing things properly does not hurt my kids experience at all.  My kids work will benefit them, and it's who they become as people, not the plaque on the wall. We agree on that!

If this is happening in my Troop, then it's my concern, otherwise it's not my clowns or circus.   I've got my own clowns! 

This is probably because you were never brought up as a PL, SPL, JASM, then ASM years before your own spawn took their first breath. As a result you don't have the broad definition of "my kids". My boys, first were given to me at age 13. I'm still keeping an eye on half of those lot! I didn't think of it that way at the time, but a couple of young women were my girls because the leadership development rubbed off on other areas of life.

Son #1 and #2 might have been my re-entry back into scouting, and Daughter into venturing, but in the crew/troop/district/council, they really were some other SM/SPL/PL/Chief/Officer's scouts. The boys in my troop (and venturers across the council and area) caught onto this pretty quick, and -- knowing that I wasn't in it just for my kids -- they had my ear when any number of issues (including EBoR's) arose. More than once I've looked up from my Saturday coffee to see some youth coming up the sidewalk with a concern. And if not me, they knew they could call on Mrs. Q. One even knew he could count on Son #2 for some emergency babysitting!

This happens to other scout moms and dads (especially those with good coaching skills). They're just sitting by our fire minding their own business and some kid decides to make the trek over and start talking. All of a sudden, they've acquired one more pathetic life form. I have no way to be sure, Wisconson, but my gut tells me you're gonna be one of those adults, maybe as soon as a couple of years from now. That's about when some BSA4G scout -- who at the moment has a renegade status but by then might want to take a crack at this new program -- could be looking for the one adult she can have a straight conversation with about advancement.

So, sure, help your boys and their buddies figure out their next move in the life of your troop,  but understand that these conversations here are not abstractions for a lot of us. Soon enough, they might not be for you either.

Edited December 13, 2017 by qwazse

[Eagle94-A1]

Well Said!