How about those who prefer leaders keep their hands off the kids?

[Col. Flagg]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

My objection is to this hanging Bobcats upside down for pinning their patch nonsense.  I understand it was done long ago, but I'm glad it's gone.  It was interesting that someone mentioned it, I had never heard of it before.   Given that the BSA has discouraged the practice and it hasn't been around for more than 20 years, it's not really a problem.  As far as being a new person to Scouting, yes, it's not the 1990's anymore.   That's where I was going with the touching -- the holding kids upside down -- that's no good.   Don't approve, BSA got it right. 

Be careful what you wish for. BSA has been known to cave to peer pressure. All it takes is for one person to complain about WB "beading" ceremonies as cultural appropriation (use of beads, beads being Native American, etc.) and there go all your beads. Think it can't happen? Ask any Scouter who was in an OA ceremony team as a youth. No more "war paint", no more bare chests, no more firing arrows to start the fire, no more "taps" at tap outs.

Did BSA have stupid ceremonies that put people in danger? Sure. Using rubbing alcohol on someone's chest and lighting it was a baaaad idea. Hanging a Cub Scout upside down -- something he does 10 times during recess -- is NOT even close to being dangerous. Well, no more dangerous than allowing Cubs to do skits around a campfire, go door to door to sell popcorn to strangers, go to the restroom at night while camping or earning their whitlin' chip.

If adults keep taking away from the program the kids will stop coming. As noted above, did anyone ask the KIDS what they wanted?

When my son was too young for Cubs I kept telling him about Y Guides and how he could dress up like an indian and learn native crafts. He was stoked!! First meeting the leader gets up and says, "Sorry, no more dressing as indians and doing indian stuff. We are now 'Explorers'." My kid stood up and said "I'm outta here. Let's go dad." Just like that the entire "tribe" folded. 10 kids all psyched to learn and respect native culture, turned off because the adults had changed the program.

BSA is already headed down this path. You wait.

[an_old_DC]

47 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

....Ask any Scouter who was in an OA ceremony team as a youth. No more "war paint", no more bare chests, no more firing arrows to start the fire, no more "taps" at tap outs.

....

BSA is already headed down this path. You wait.

My time spent on an OA ceremonies team is some of my favorite memories of Scouting as a youth.

I am also an associate chapter advisor. The guys in our chapter have a lot of fun and it's a great experience for them, but when us "old timers" tell stories about what we were doing as ceremonialists back in the day, ..well, you can tell the youth are jealous.

Edited December 8, 2017 by an_old_DC

[Stosh]

I would think that anyone my age who was a scouter "back in the day" would have a lot of stories to tell that would make the youth of today more than just jealous.  Well, the kicker would be when they were told that such things aren't allowed anymore. (and some of them might even be illegal.) 

[David CO]

7 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I shake hands with every Scout when they complete a BOR, at ECOH's and other times when congratulations are in order.  Am I in trouble?  (I am mostly joking, but not 100%.)

My students and scouts don't like shaking hands. They regard it as terribly old-fashioned and hopelessly out of date. They tell me that only old people want to shake hands. 

[Stosh]

Yeah, well, young people wear their hats while eating, wear clothes that Good Will won't take and have minimal social skills when talking to anyone other than their computer buddies.  I guess only older people have social norms other than high-fives and sporting one's underwear in public. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Stosh

[RememberSchiff]

Maybe we scouters now need to ask permission first.

 I found this teaching objective in my diocese Touching Safety Program for teens

They should honor and respect the wishes of others who don’t want to be touched, even when it feels like rejection and hurts their feelings. Learning that others have the right to say “no” and to have their “no” respected is a fundamental part of our character development as we grow into young adults. It empowers us to maintain our own boundaries and to respect and support the boundaries of those around us.

 

 

[Back Pack]

As a college student and recent grad I can tell my friends and I shook hands and didn’t mind the pat on the shoulder. We know all adults aren’t pedophiles and you usually get a vibe when someone’s doing creepy touches. In all my scouting there was only one person who did that and we let our Sm know. Any kids who don’t want to shake hands or such are just being disrespectful. A scout is courteous so even if you don’t want to shake hands you do so out of courtesy. Would you forgive a scout for being unkind because he didn’t feel like being kind? No so it’s dumb to say it’s okay for them to not shake. 

As far a special ceremonies these make scouting special. When you take them away the guys get ticked off and disappointed. Keep the special ceremonies. 

[MattR]

5 hours ago, David CO said:

My students and scouts don't like shaking hands. They regard it as terribly old-fashioned and hopelessly out of date. They tell me that only old people want to shake hands. 

Just tell them that cute Spanish, Italian, and French speaking girls prefer to kiss. Some kids also think punctuation, writing, and reading is hopelessly out of date as well.

But getting back to the OP, I'm wondering if this issue of touching has an element of trust that isn't being brought up. I have no problem hanging a scout upside down, if I know the scout and know he'd likely enjoy the experience. I'd never just walk into some unit's ceremony and grab a kid that I didn't know and turn him upside down. Yes, a few of them would freak out and I'm not interested in that. It takes time to know whether a kid is open to that sort of thing. Is that the issue? The time it takes to develop trust between an adult and a scout?

[RememberSchiff]

6 hours ago, MattR said:

 Is that the issue? The time it takes to develop trust between an adult and a scout?

Hmmm, @MattR now there's a thought. Back in the day, before the internet and cellphones, I knew the adults in my neighborhood as I played over at friends' houses and at Little League long before I joined the troop where some of those same adults volunteered. Trust had already been established.

Edited December 9, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[Eagledad]

I admit both my disgust and disappointment with this thread. I was working with two out of state contractors this week who are scout leaders. They both told me their number one issue in running the troop is helicopter parents. The couple of their examples were very reminiscent of this discussion. While we had to deal with a couple of over zealous moms, it wasn’t anywhere near the number one issue. Both these leaders believe bringing in girls will kill the program as we know it. 

Im so glad my son’s got to experience a boy run program. 

Barry

[David CO]

13 hours ago, MattR said:

Just tell them that cute Spanish, Italian, and French speaking girls prefer to kiss.  

Not just the girls. My nephew was raised in France, and he was taught to do that traditional French kissy- kissy thing.

[an_old_DC]

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I admit both my disgust and disappointment with this thread. I was working with two out of state contractors this week who are scout leaders. They both told me their number one issue in running the troop is helicopter parents. The couple of their examples were very reminiscent of this discussion. While we had to deal with a couple of over zealous moms, it wasn’t anywhere near the number one issue. Both these leaders believe bringing in girls will kill the program as we know it. 

Im so glad my son’s got to experience a boy run program. 

Barry

I would give this post about 100 up votes if I could. My Commissioner corps reports that among the units they serve, the most common problem has become helping leaders who are worn out from dealing with helicopter and bulldozer parents looking to smooth their sons’s path so he doesn’t encounter obstacles.

Many of my staff are long time Scouters who are products of the program themselves, have been CM and SM, and have been Commissioners and district volunteers a long time, and so have a wealth of experience. Bringing in girls and their parents? As Luke Skywalker used to say “They have a bad feeling about this.” It isn’t the girls themselves that will be the problem, it’s how the units and therefore Program will change due to parents and unit leaders.

 

 

[Sentinel947]

 

Wow I didn't realize shaking somebodies hand was such a big deal. First time on this forum that I feel like an out of touch dinosaur. Obviously there's something to be said about maintaining appropriate boundaries, even more so with small children or somebody of the opposite gender. However, I didn't realize shaking one of my scouts hand's would be viewed as some kind of harassment. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the points made in the thread. 

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

I would give this post about 100 up votes if I could. My Commissioner corps reports that among the units they serve, the most common problem has become helping leaders who are worn out from dealing with helicopter and bulldozer parents looking to smooth their sons’s path so he doesn’t encounter obstacles.

In my troop they are an issue every year, but especially this year. It is so bad, that several Scouters with 3+ years with the troop, a long time for us, are fed up and want to quit. One told me 'Scouting is no longer fun" We have a adult meeting next week, and it's going to get interesting.

[The Latin Scot]

Wow ... I don't think I have EVER heard of shaking hands as being either "out-of-date" or problematic in any way. It can't be generational; I am barely 34 and most of my friends are much younger; shaking hands is as common as any other kind of greeting. At the university I went to (BYU), people shake hands ALL THE TIME, whether it's greeting a new person or an old friend. 

Now I live back home in California, and it's still just as commonplace here in South Orange County as it ever was. ALL of the boys in our Troop shake hands with leaders when they greet (and each other when they remember), and I make it a point to act shocked and appalled whenever one of my Webelos Scouts forgets to offer his hand when I welcome him to our weekly meetings. I have yet to have any parents act shocked and appalled when I have attempted the same towards them. 

I admit, I remember being turned upside down when I got my Bobcat badge in the early 90's. I was a pretty small and sensitive kid, and I very strongly remember disliking the whole thing, despite the fact that both of my older brothers had the same experience and LOVED it. I, however, hated being turned down in front of a big room of strangers; it was uncomfortable and embarrassing and I felt ridiculed and silly.

Oh, and then I grew up and got over it. Because that's what Scouting teaches you to do! You learn from tough experiences, and you become a stronger adult! I attribute much of the ease and comfort I possess speaking to large crowds the the things I learned in Scouting. 

Would I ever flip any of my boys around if I had the chance? Goodness no. But neither would I be so petty, so melodramatic, that I would condemn what truly is a harmless activity. The trauma it inflicts on the boy is only the springboard from which he can learn and grow. But you have to give them the chance to do it.