How about those who prefer leaders keep their hands off the kids?

[Stosh]

How are we now to do Scout Vespers around the campfire?  Is this yet another tradition down the drain?  

OA Tap out ceremony, air taps are now like air kisses?

Only one scout on a toboggan at a time?

How does one go through a life of Scouting without treating everyone like they have leprosy?

 

[Col. Flagg]

What is really scary is what could happen 5 or 10 years from now. Folks can make accusations well after-the-supposed-fact and you could be at risk. That's a scary proposition as a volunteer leader. Sadly one of many reasons why I "retired".

[walk in the woods]

12 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Well, if the Scout declines to extend his hand, or pulls it away, I am not going to go grabbing for it.

That's not the problem scenario.  The problem is when the scout feels compelled to shake your hand because you offered yours, does so, then the scout  (or the parents or a concerned onlooker) decides later that you offering your hand created a hostile environment.   @David CO used the pendulum analogy.  We're a long way from a moderating center position.  

[Stosh]

8 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

That's not the problem scenario.  The problem is when the scout feels compelled to shake your hand because you offered yours, does so, then the scout  (or the parents or a concerned onlooker) decides later that you offering your hand created a hostile environment.   @David CO used the pendulum analogy.  We're a long way from a moderating center position.  

And so do defines the "moderating center position"?  If one adheres to the Scout Law, A Scout is Friendly, Courteous and Kind.  Offering one's hand as a gesture of congratulations and it is refused?  How does one go about redefining the Scout Law to accommodate local traditions?

It's a slippery slope we are on in light of today's PCisms.  It's getting to the point where everything is now under suspicion and what was once a cultural tradition is now a forbidden taboo.

[Tampa Turtle]

If a parent says something then you try to avoid doing it. We did the upside thing and asked the parents first if it was OK and asked the boy, twice and privately if it was OK. I never held the lads because I am not strong enough.

I have a kid with sensory issues and we are a hand-shaking Troop; it really helped him along as there were a lot of patient non-adult men willing to take the time to help him practice until he has learned to at least tolerate it. 

I will pat a boy on a shoulder but that is about it. I have hugged the occasional boy because of a tragedy, I have to worries or regrets about that.

[NJCubScouter]

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

That's not the problem scenario.  The problem is when the scout feels compelled to shake your hand because you offered yours, does so, then the scout  (or the parents or a concerned onlooker) decides later that you offering your hand created a hostile environment.   @David CO used the pendulum analogy.  We're a long way from a moderating center position.  

Well, I don't think we're at that point.  Unless you are saying that that has actually happened.  If we ever do get to that point, where normal everyday human interaction is outlawed because it involves one person's hand briefly touching another's, it will be a sad and scary day world, and not one in which many people will be brave enough (or maybe that should be reckless enough) to volunteer for anything. 

[WisconsinMomma]

13 hours ago, David CO said:

I am willing to listen to people who feel that we need a different policy on physical contact. I might even encourage the discussion. I like discussion.

That said, I think you are going to far when you say that it is wrong. 

 

My objection is to this hanging Bobcats upside down for pinning their patch nonsense.  I understand it was done long ago, but I'm glad it's gone.  It was interesting that someone mentioned it, I had never heard of it before.   Given that the BSA has discouraged the practice and it hasn't been around for more than 20 years, it's not really a problem.  As far as being a new person to Scouting, yes, it's not the 1990's anymore.   That's where I was going with the touching -- the holding kids upside down -- that's no good.   Don't approve, BSA got it right. 

[Eagle94-A1]

35 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

My objection is to this hanging Bobcats upside down for pinning their patch nonsense.  I understand it was done long ago, but I'm glad it's gone.  It was interesting that someone mentioned it, I had never heard of it before.   Given that the BSA has discouraged the practice and it hasn't been around for more than 20 years, it's not really a problem.  As far as being a new person to Scouting, yes, it's not the 1990's anymore.   That's where I was going with the touching -- the holding kids upside down -- that's no good.   Don't approve, BSA got it right. 

 

Had anyone asked the Cubs what they wanted?  I know all the Cubs, and a lot of the parents, were ticked off when this ban was announced. To my knowledge no one from national asked anyone about  it before they banned it.

Thankfully someone got wind of the proposed marshmallow ban before it went into affect.

Maybe I'm old school, and think Scouting is for the youth. I think we need to listen to them and give them credit, especially at the Scout age and above.

 

 

[numbersnerd]

14 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Had anyone asked the Cubs what they wanted?  I know all the Cubs, and a lot of the parents, were ticked off when this ban was announced. To my knowledge no one from national asked anyone about  it before they banned it.

Thankfully someone got wind of the proposed marshmallow ban before it went into affect.

Maybe I'm old school, and think Scouting is for the youth. I think we need to listen to them and give them credit, especially at the Scout age and above.

 

 

New Age leadership doesn't really care about what the boys want. What seems to be more important is finding new witches to burn and congratulating themselves on making things 'safer'. While it may indeed be 'safer', it is also less fun. And less fun translates into fewer Scouts. Rinse and repeat.

Edited December 8, 2017 by numbersnerd

[MattR]

Oh man, I'm in trouble. 16 years as ASM & SM that included such things as wrestling, white washing, the "what's that on your neckerchief?" gag, arm wrestling, high fives, the entire troop hugging me for my birthday, the older scouts saying "let's get Mr R!" and the ensuing moshpit with me at the bottom, throwing kids in the pool, water fights on rafts that included throwing scouts off the raft ....

Watch how the scouts play with each other. They do touch each other. They wrestle. They pig pile. They jam 6 kids into a 2 man tent and play cards. If you suggest to any of them that what they're doing is sexual or inappropriate then you'll ruin something innocent that they can't do anywhere else.

While I would never enter a tent I did wrestle and a bunch of other things. It was fun but it was more than that. It was also gaining their trust so when I had to tell them they were being self centered and didn't reflect the ideals of scouting, they'd listen and respect me. I wanted the scouts to understand that there's a time to play and a time to be serious. If they didn't see me do that then I was just another bloviating adult they could tune out.

[walk in the woods]

58 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Well, I don't think we're at that point.  Unless you are saying that that has actually happened.  If we ever do get to that point, where normal everyday human interaction is outlawed because it involves one person's hand briefly touching another's, it will be a sad and scary day world, and not one in which many people will be brave enough (or maybe that should be reckless enough) to volunteer for anything. 

I've recently completed my institution's required Title IX indoctraining so I'm perhaps a bit hypersensitive to the ever shifting definitions of proof, evidence, due process, and "normal human interaction."

[Tampa Turtle]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

My objection is to this hanging Bobcats upside down for pinning their patch nonsense.  I understand it was done long ago, but I'm glad it's gone.  It was interesting that someone mentioned it, I had never heard of it before.   Given that the BSA has discouraged the practice and it hasn't been around for more than 20 years, it's not really a problem.  As far as being a new person to Scouting, yes, it's not the 1990's anymore.   That's where I was going with the touching -- the holding kids upside down -- that's no good.   Don't approve, BSA got it right. 

Our Pack still does it. I think since I have known them...500 boys got their Bobcat Badge...most got turned upside down (a few said no)...no one dropped (yet). We had more than one DE at those things. 

[Stosh]

7 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I've recently completed my institution's required Title IX indoctraining so I'm perhaps a bit hypersensitive to the ever shifting definitions of proof, evidence, due process, and "normal human interaction."

Now I'm confused.  How does Title IX discrimination for governmental institutions fit in with shaking hands, unless one is making the effort to shake only certain people's hands?    I do recall it customary to shake a woman's hand, but only if she offered her's first.

Then of course there's the hypocritical discrimination processes creeping in where it's okay for a gal to hold a door for another gal, or even a guy, but a guy holding a door for another guy is okay, but not for another gal.

So, the polite customs book is being rewritten.... when's it going to get published so we know what the new rules are? 

I'm of an age where I know the tried and true customs of 20 years ago.  I go by them because a scout is courteous.  If someone has a problem with me being out-of-date with being PC polite, then they have a problem.  Not me.

I find it interesting that even the "no-touchy, feely" people shook my hand on the way out of church.

Now some of the customs have gone by the wayside, which is kinda sad on many levels.  

It takes a heroic amount of tolerance to offer one's hand for a handshake only to receive a scowl and a grunt in return.

[numbersnerd]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

My objection is to this hanging Bobcats upside down for pinning their patch nonsense.  I understand it was done long ago, but I'm glad it's gone.  It was interesting that someone mentioned it, I had never heard of it before.   Given that the BSA has discouraged the practice and it hasn't been around for more than 20 years, it's not really a problem.  As far as being a new person to Scouting, yes, it's not the 1990's anymore.   That's where I was going with the touching -- the holding kids upside down -- that's no good.   Don't approve, BSA got it right. 

You've never said WHAT your objection to the practice is. Because it's no good? What is the definition of that? What's the reasoning behind that conclusion? Because it's no good for your kid? OK, but does that mean it's no good for all kids?

Here's the thing: Everything in Scouts is voluntary. Nothing is mandatory. But when you take options away, you lessen the experience.

There are other fun things in Scouting that not everyone enjoys. Should we get rid of those, too? Some kids are terrified of the water. Is anyone making them swim at Scout functions? Should swimming be eliminated in Scouting? Camping? There are many things in Scouting that people that don't care for. But remember you are not compelled to do them. Nothing. And just because someone doesn't like it or don't want to participate, why does that mean nobody should?

I've said before that the practice isn't a necessity and the ban isn't a death blow, but why was its elimination needed? For those who chose it, it was fun. Why is it necessary to take away the option of making a choice? Especially a fun one.

[Tampa Turtle]

I should say we used BSA approved bungee harnesses and high impact crash helmets. Optional for boys playing pee-wee football. And double stick tape after some ugly pin incidents. 

We tried leaving the boys standing up and having the leaders standing up but we are all getting too old.

I guess I should bring up the magic kerchief flame trick at the cross over ceremony...I always wondered how we got away with live flames in a public school building.

This all circa 2007 to present day BTW.