How about those who prefer leaders keep their hands off the kids?

[Tampa Turtle]

19 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

YPT tip #4: Don't touch the scouts, even the sexy ones.

I used to use that joke with the New Parents on BSA YPT policy (I am the "New Parents" ASM many years). Was a quick way to figure out who was a little more uptight that the others. But I was told by the SM it was a little too edgy.

[Stosh]

16 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

OK, Stosh says the boys will lose, Flagg says the girls will lose, we'll have to see what actually happens.

Yes, there will need to be more leaders (1).  That means welcoming to the new people who show up to help out.  

If patrols are youth run, if I understand Stosh correctly, the adults aren't all that important! (2)     The BSA has a wealth of training materials and there's always Youtube for learning to do lashings and practically any other Scout skill. 

We'll have to see how it goes. 

1) But will the leaders be the boys or adults?  It's my suspicion that it is adults being referred to here.  Scouting needs boy leaders, not adult leaders.

2) The program is designed for the boys.  and yes, you do fully understand correctly. 

[Eagle94-A1]

11 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Yes, there will need to be more leaders.  That means welcoming to the new people who show up to help out.   

If patrols are youth run, if I understand Stosh correctly, the adults aren't all that important!     The BSA has a wealth of training materials and there's always Youtube for learning to do lashings and practically any other Scout skill. 

We'll have to see how it goes. 

The elephant in the room: "more leaders."  In my neck of the woods, getting Scouters is like pulling teeth or herding cats. Several units have told me that they will go full fledged coed irregardless of what National wants. At my council's town hall meeting on the topic, this was mentioned, and every Scouter there, except the council key 3, said that will happen in their units and/or districts as they all have challenges getting enough volunteers. Key three ignored the comment. Even the CSE in his video indirectly acknowledges this. He stated that dens of different levels had to merge in one of the districts because they didn't have enough Cub Scouts of a particular level and/or den leaders. Having a been a pro, I can tell you that professionals will toe the line officially, but tell you ways to get around the official line. The CSE's tale is one. Officially you do not combine Tiger Dens  and Wolf/Bear Dens and Webelos Dens. It need to be at a minimum 3 separate dens. But as long as each Cub is working out of his own book, the CSE is fine. A better one is the DE calling waterguns "Personal Water Soaking Devices" or "PWSDs" and allowing them since they are a fun way to cool off Scouts and keep them from getting heat exhaustion. ( an aside when we followed the ban, #1 cause of illness at day camp was heat exhaustion over a 5 day period, over 20 kids went home early, following year PWSDs were not only allowed, but encouraged. NO ONE went home early due to heat exhaution)

Sadly BSA no longer allows patrols to camp on their own without adults. That's a recent change, since 2012 or thereabouts. So adults are important since "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING" (That is not only the correct quote, but the mathematically correct one. Current BSHB has a misquote and is mathematically wrong). Not enough adults equals no camping. While the new YPT has not come out yet, we can reason that the new YP Guidelines will be similar to  Venturing: if girls are present camping, a female Scouter needs to be there. While there are women who love to camp, will there be enough? Will they be available? Someone in another thread asked about troops poaching his female Venturing Scouters so they can take the girls camping. What happens when "the boy troop and girl troop" are camping the same weekend at the same location and no female Scouters are able to camp with the girls? Do you cancel just the "girls troop" camp out, or will "both troops" have to cancel? While this may not seem possible, I have had a trip cancelled because we did not have 2 adults to camp. 1 backed out a week before for back reason. Another backed out 2 hours before leaving to have emergency surgery. So that is a real possibility.

And that does concern my kids. My youngest just found out about girls in Cub Scouts this morning when I showed him the picture. He freaked out saying " NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!" (Yes he was shouting and woke up his brothers). When I asked him "What's the matter with girls in Cub Scouts"" he stated  "Boy Scouts is for boys. Girls have Girl Scouts." And then I said "Well there are girls who want to do what Boy Scouts do." He replied "things are going to fall apart. Remember when we had the boys club and the girls club? The boys club met every week, and had awesome Nerf gun fights. The girls did boring things. Then they joined the two clubs and it became boring. Then everyone stopped showing up."

Sadly I think this scenario will repeat nationwide with the introduction of girls. You will have units fold because they will try to follow national's official policy. Those units that go full coed will have boys drop because they will get bored..

And there is a big difference between learning something on a computer, and learning something from an experienced instructor who teaches from the syllabus. Sadly I know why BSA, and a lot of other organizations are going to computer-based learning: convenience  and consistency. And I have noticed quality of BSA training go down since they implemented it too. And with all these new volunteers, how many will have experience in Boy Scouts? There is a big difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, and parents and new volunteers have an extremely hard time adjusting. This will become worse with female volunteers who are use to the GSUSA model, which is completely different than BSA's model, #1 issue with units I've been in has been been parents. This goes all the way back to when I was a PL of a NSP in the 1980s!

 

[WisconsinMomma]

I haven't told my boys about girls in Scouting yet, I'm going to wait until it actually starts to happen. 

But I'll tell you about some girls in the neighborhood.  My middle son's best friend, I'll call her Anna.  Her dad takes her fishing.  She likes archery.  Her mom and dad are great people.  If you get Anna in the troop you'll get her mom or dad too.

The girls down the street, two little girls and they are girly so they  may not be interested in Scouts, but let's say they are interested in earning Eagle as an accomplishment.  Their dad is a retired fire chief, mom is a nurse and on the PTO.  These parents will be there for their girls.

You will get new leaders in Scouting along with the girls, many girls have very supportive parents who will come along for the ride. 

 

ETA:  Another family in my area -- two older brothers are Scouts.  Younger sister will be Scout age soon.  Dad is already an ASM.  If she wants to be a Boy Scout, then her family is already active in the Troop.  If her friends want to join the troop, her family knows all their parents and can help recruit additional volunteers. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by WisconsinMomma

[an_old_DC]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

 

Yes, there will need to be more leaders.  That means welcoming to the new people who show up to help out.   

 

“The new people who show up to help out”?

Uh, sure. I mean if that’s the way it works in your community, that’s great. It doesn’t work like that in my area. No adult volunteers =no unit.

My hunch is that some parents of girls Cub Scout age think BSA stands for “baby sitters anonymous” and they can’t wait for boys and girls to be in the same pack so they can drop the kids off at a pack meeting on their way to date night.

[WisconsinMomma]

That's some parents, but  not all of them.  And if Scout kids are at camp and they go on a date, it's not that bad.  You guys say you don't want adults around, except when you do!  Many parents are very supportive of their kids' activities.  

[Tampa Turtle]

Eagle 94-A1 you are dead on every point. I am seeing the leadership problem now in my Troop:

(1) The old hand Scouters are throttling back their participation because of uncertainty and disapproval -backing off rather than completely walking away. . While they are not at every meeting these folks (which includes some women) are the ones that, since their boys are gone, have more patience with the odd boys, pass on Troop traditions, and seem to know the best about field and wood craft. I do not know if they will come back and engage more because they just love scouting too much or will later walk away so they don't look like Misogynists.

(2) The active parents/uniformed leaders of the current Scouts seem the most upset with the change (I suppose because they are in the system they picked). There is a major push by at least half of the most active parents/ASM's/Committee members to "wrap up" Eagle (their words) as fast as possible before the girls arrive. 

(3) The less engaged parents (over worked folks half ASM and half coaching sports) bugged out shortly after the announcement with their kids to concentrate on their sport. While they often tend to drift away anyway it seems the change provided a good excuse.

(4) We have had a few folks, mostly former cub scout den leader moms, fill in the gaps. (Usually we suggest cub scout leaders take a 6 month breather and get used to how different Boy Scouts is than Cubbing before donning the tan shirt). The down side is they pretty much switch from a Cub Scout Den theme approach to advocating what I will call "every day is a merit badge academy".

(5) Since the middle aged to older boys (always a hard group to please) are vocally less than enthused with the change their moms are pretty mad about it and the most vocal group in opposition. Often these are the same moms who give their boys a push to stay in scouting when they lag in enthusiasm. They also provide key committee posts.

(6) The current SM (we like to have two year terms) is planning to quit after year 1. He has been through gender integration in other venues (and did so successfully as a leader) and just doesn't want the hassle. As you know it is hard to find a good SM. With the announcement the next two best SM candidates are leaning more 'no'.

(7) We have a couple terrific outdoorsy moms with lots of GSUSA experience chomping at the bit (and with their daughters) waiting to jump in. I have camped with them and they HATE GSUSA. The problem is while they are fine with the outdoor aspects of the program when they do join in they keep short circuiting the patrol process especially with the younger boys and do things for them. They have gone through BSA training but it seems a big cultural shift.

Mind you this is ALL BEFORE we have gotten any guidance from National, Council, District on what to do. Despite all the assurances about parallel Troops or a boys only option we have girls knocking on the door NOW. 

As you all know it can be very hard to find good committed Scout leaders in the U.S. program. It requires a night a week, a campout a month, additional training time, and expenses. For a lot of reasons it gets harder and harder to find that kind of person. I know in our Troop corners are being cut, we ask less of the new leaders, some folks might rarely camp at all or show up on a regular basis. It takes more adults if they are less committed to cover the bases and as a result it gets harder to keep everyone on the same page. And the most important item on that page IMHO is keeping the adults out of the way of the scouts.

Now it is entirely possible that, over time, enough a new leaders will fill those gaps and, again over time, build up enough experience to deliver good programs with boys and girl scout. But I fear that National will prop up any 'experience gap' with more things like Merit Badge Universities, class room like STEM badges, and rapid advancement because they are worried about numbers and delivering the traditional, scout led, patrol based outdoor program is becoming counter cultural hard work.

[NJCubScouter]

11 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

My hunch is that some parents of girls Cub Scout age think BSA stands for “baby sitters anonymous” and they can’t wait for boys and girls to be in the same pack so they can drop the kids off at a pack meeting on their way to date night.

There are some parents of boys already in the program who think the same thing.

[an_old_DC]

5 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

There are some parents of boys already in the program who think the same thing.

Fair enough and I certainly saw it when I was SM. But if a pack is currently struggling to find den and other leaders, I think it’ll be challenging to find moms or other women to be additional Den Leaders. As for troops, I don’t see tons of female ASMs right now.

Nobody knows, of course, so maybe I’m wrong. YMMV

Edited December 13, 2017 by an_old_DC

[Eagle94-A1]

If your sons are Boy Scouts, they know about girls being able to join already. The word has been out since before Jamboree. Scouts in my troop know it is coming.

That's nice you know parents, especially a mom, who will be involved. But will it be enough? For the trip that got cancelled, we have 9 active Scouters, plus  the helicopter parents, yet only 3 adults were willing to go because it was backpacking. More importantly will the moms be comfortable doing the trips?

One helicopter mom, who refuses to let her son camp without her, would not do the survival camp out, nor the survival camporee, nor the backpacking trip. Guess which Scout didn't attend these camp outs.

And you never addressed the experienced factor. We have an avid outdoorsman and survivalist as a Scouter in the troop. I admit he knows more survival skills and techniques than me, or anyone else in the troop save the ASM who went through SERE. Great resource right? WRONG, AS THE  EXPERIENCED SCOUTS HATE HIM! (caps for emphasis). He is constantly interfering, treating them like Cub Scouts. It got to the point that  he started doing cooking and KP on two camp outs, and the older Scouts walked away as they were fed up with him. Since he is a nationally certified wilderness survival instructor with one of the survival schools, you would think he would teach great survival classes? SPL asked him to do just that. First session he did on shelters was boring as all get out, no hands on teaching, and was essentially doing the tarp shelter from Webelos. SPL got the SERE survivor to finish up the rest of the sessions instead because there was protest with the way he was doing things.

The problem was that all his experience in Scouting has been Cub Scout based. He was never a Boy Scout, and while "trained," having completed online SM Specific and ITOLs at summer camp, he has not truly made the transition to Boy Scouter mode. He does not know how to interact with the Scouts. He does not know how to work with the Scouts, He does not know how to relate to the Scouts. And instead of being a blessing to the troop like all of us thought, he has turned into a big detriment. He is one of the helicopter parents we are having issues with. He is the one who lets his son sneak into his tent or shelter when Scout son is afraid. He is the one sitting outside the tent until his son falls asleep. He is the one who is taking over cooking and cleaning when son is suppose to do it. And according to National, he is a fully "trained" ASM entitled to wear the "Trained Strip."

 

Outdoor knowledge, skills, and abilities do not equate to being  a good Boy Scouter. A lot more than knowing how to tie lashings, camp, etc is needed. You need to know how to work with YOUNG MEN ages 10 - 18. You need to be able to relate, mentor, and advise. And that does not come from training. And just being male, or growing up in the program make you an expert, it takes time and mentoring. For all my experience as a youth, I was a lousy ASM fro the first year. I kept going into SPL mode, and not Scouter mode. It took time and mentoring.

16 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

(4) We have had a few folks, mostly former cub scout den leader moms, fill in the gaps. (Usually we suggest cub scout leaders take a 6 month breather and get used to how different Boy Scouts is than Cubbing before donning the tan shirt). The down side is they pretty much switch from a Cub Scout Den theme approach to advocating what I will call "every day is a merit badge academy".

That is one of the problems we are having. Unfortunately  because we have been desperate for adults in the past, we didn't have the cooling off period. It is now biting us in the butt. Troop growing up made folks wait a year, sometimes longer, to become an ASM. The SM, and COR/CC vetted folks before making them an ASM. I think they may have had problems before I was in the troop.

26 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

That's some parents, but  not all of them.  And if Scout kids are at camp and they go on a date, it's not that bad.  You guys say you don't want adults around, except when you do!  Many parents are very supportive of their kids' activities.  

It's not that I am against adults around. I don't want adults INTERFERING (emphasis) with the Patrol Method.  Growing up, the only time I had interactions with an adult was for a health and safety issue (MD gave me free summer camp physical and examined for a concussion on one camp out. Even when I got hypothermia in Canada, it was a Scout who treated me, not an adult), when I was acting as SPL, and my first time I was PL, when I modeled a leadership style from my original troop that the SM did not approve of ( Yelling and screaming at my Scouts). Even then, my SPL was the first invovled, and counseled me. THEN the SM  came over and chatted with me.

Otherwise all the adults did was sit around the campfire, drinking coffee, and doing their own thing.

[RememberSchiff]

41 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

That's some parents, but  not all of them.  And if Scout kids are at camp and they go on a date, it's not that bad.  You guys say you don't want adults around, except when you do!  Many parents are very supportive of their kids' activities.  

There is coffee all over my screen.

Scouts going on a date while at a scout activity? Not happening.

Edited December 13, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[Back Pack]

My best friend’s dad took him hunting, fishing and camping since he was 2. Seriously. When he entered cub scouts we never saw his dad except to pick him up. I think the idea of parents helping based on what their parents did outside of scouts is off. My dad complained all the time about parents who did all this stuff outside of scouts according to their social media posts but had not time to volunteer for scouts. 

[Eagledad]

34 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

There is coffee all over my screen.

Scouts going on a date while at a scout activity? Not happening.

A professional a few years back told me that there are, what he called, scout babies floating around. That was back in the 90's. Based from what I hear about the more laid back European Scout Units, I have always wondered if they have that same issue.

Never underestimate the power of raging hormones.

As for the importance of adults in scouting, I am a big proponent of boy run patrol method. I am also convinced that adults set the tone of growth in all scouting units. As a result of that observation over the years,  adults (the right adults) are the most important part of the program. BSA scouting is an adult program for preparing boys for adulthood. Err, um, preparing youth for adulthood.

Barry

Edited December 13, 2017 by Eagledad

[WisconsinMomma]

I think sometimes stories get told over and over.   Sure, babies are made all over the place.  That is life.  Just don't blame the girls and women only because it takes two to tango. 

 

ETA:  A joke:   
No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. Henry Kissinger
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/henry_kissinger_105144

Edited December 13, 2017 by WisconsinMomma

[RememberSchiff]

6 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I think sometimes stories get told over and over.   Sure, babies are made all over the place.  That is life.  Just don't blame the girls and women only because it takes two to tango. 

I did not blame girls or women, in fact I did not state the genders,  dating is inappropriate at a scout activity.  Or did that change?