How about those who prefer leaders keep their hands off the kids?

[Col. Flagg]

On 12/14/2017 at 12:44 AM, TAHAWK said:

Not sure where you get the facts to leap to this erroneous canard.

My poor attempt at humor. Since you guys hold yourselves up as "old guys" I figured you (and only you) would have listened to the Lil' Rascals on radio live.

I blew the set up of the joke. I blame online forums.

[Eagledad]

13 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

My son and I used to have entire conversations in sarcasm.

Us too. Or was it entire conversations of irony.🤔

Edited December 15, 2017 by Eagledad

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

My poor attempt at humor. Since you guys hold yourselves up as "old guys" I figured you (and only you) would have listened to the Lil' Rascals on radio live.

I blew the set up of the joke. I blame online forums.

Well how old! It’s not like I remember the industrial revolution. My kids keep telling me I’m old, and my knees hurt on cold days. Isn’t that old enough?

Barry

[Stosh]

Heck, I remember being part of the extended Peanut Gallery watching Howdy Doody do his marionette dancing around and Clarabell the Clown talk with his bicycle horn.  And yes, Lil' Rascals were standard fare on Saturday morning well before it was taken over with cartoons.  Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck.

[Tampa Turtle]

3 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Heck, I remember being part of the extended Peanut Gallery watching Howdy Doody do his marionette dancing around and Clarabell the Clown talk with his bicycle horn.  And yes, Lil' Rascals were standard fare on Saturday morning well before it was taken over with cartoons.  Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck.

Older than me. But Lil' Rascals was well into syndication in the 1980's. 

[Cubber]

On 12/13/2017 at 11:44 AM, Col. Flagg said:

On 12/13/2017 at 11:44 AM, Col. Flagg said:

the erosion of places where guys can go to "be guys" without people thinking that's a bad thing.

I hear this sometimes and while I understand it comes from, experience or how our society currently is. There's no denying those experiences are real and meaningful. But it does not have to be where we are going in the future.

In actuality, you'll have few brave pioneering girls join up at first, but most won't want to deal with the lukewarm reception they will receive in most troops.  They will wait it out and miss an opportunity. The ones that join will have some support and much opposition. They will be encouraged and they will be discouraged. They will be made to feel equal and made to feel inferior. Welcome to the same journey of your adult female leaders in scouting. Think about that.

What makes the some boys feel they can't be themselves in the presence of all females, and vice versa?  How do we change that? Are there really  no females out there that don't fit right in with this world of traditional guydom?  Because I would love to introduce you to my nieces. Why should they be excluded from the BSA program because of young boy's insecurities about themselves? Why not teach our kids self-confidence and kindness, a better way to interact and respect each other as individuals? I really think we as leaders are ready and up for this challenge.

Change is hard. It can feel personal. But we also need to remember that not everyone sees gender in a defining way. Some people look at their kids and see an individual, independent of their biological sex, independent of others gender boxes of what a boy is like and what a girl is like.  Why do we feel the need to reward certain behaviors and discourage others based on their gender? Why should it not be on their individual values, interests, and strengths? 

Breaking down this barrier based on gender allows for change, which will be challenging in the short term but good in the long term. Females no longer receive the message that a program that emphasizes self reliance, leadership and outdoor skills is not appropriate for them but is for males. Males will no longer receive the messages that self reliance, leadership, and outdoor skills are the expected norm for them, but not for females. Not everyone wants to lead, not everyone wants to be an outdoors enthusiast. But everyone will now have the opportunity to join a program that encourages them to look at each other as team mates, as collaborators, as partners. As individuals with a unique set of experiences, skills and strengths. As leaders.

I am so excited about the possibilities of what this can do for my sons and my nieces. And I am completely up for the challenge of working out the details as we make this change for a better future for them. 

 

On 12/13/2017 at 11:44 AM, Col. Flagg said:

 

 

 

[Cubber]

On 12/14/2017 at 8:40 AM, Eagledad said:

Hey, we watched the quality decline with the addition of female troop leaders. It is inevitable.

Interesting. What kinds of things have declined as a result of female leadership? 

[Col. Flagg]

@Cubber, so you are saying that guys (and I assume girls) shouldn't have their same-sex groups in which to relax and be themselves? Then why do guys have golf weekends and women have scrap-booking weekends. Girls night out? Guys night out? 

If the desire to "just hang out with the guys/girls" wasn't such a big thing, then why do so many people do it?

My daughter answered the question quite well. She said, "I like hanging out without guys around because I don't have to put on make up. I can wear what I want. Eat what I want. Say what I want. Be crazy with my girl friends. I can watch what I want and not have to pretend to like something."

I'd wager if you asked guys they'd say something similar. These barriers are real and usually don't come down until you find the person you will marry. THAT is why both girls AND guys need a single sex environment.

[Cubber]

@ Col. Flagg  So again, I hear your experience and recognize some people share it. That's all good, and it shapes your perspective and enriches the world to have these differences. My experience is different.  I don't not run in the same circles you do.  I get different answers than those given by your friends and family when I ask those questions.  'Girls' and 'guys' weekends just are not a thing in my world. People hang out with people and have people weekends.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Cubber

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, Cubber said:

Interesting. What kinds of things have declined as a result of female leadership? 

Lots, but at the top of my mind scout independence declined because the adults didn't know how to implement the Eight Methods without directing them to the scouts. Instead of scout activities that required scouts to learn and use scout skills, they created classes to teach the skills. The adults started directing the scouts to follow specific patterns in their activities. One issue that grew from the old Wood Badge course was adults started forcing the scouts to follow the same agenda they experienced in their course. For example, the WB staff ate their meals with the Patrols in the old course. Suddenly scouts found themselves cooking for adults at each meal. Nobody really liked it. Certainly not the scouts, and the adults weren't excited about eating patrol food. But that is what they did at WB.

You can't blame the adults, they didn't have a youth experience to base their program, so they used Wood Badge. Everyone assumes that Wood Badge is an adult Scout Skill training course, but that is not what Wood Badge was originally designed to develop. The old course used Scout Skills classes to teach different teaching methods, not the skills themselves. The designers assumed the participants would be experienced scouters looking to "improve" their leadership and teacher skills.

I also observed that new leaders of new units tended to focus on advancement and leadership more than other parts of the program because those methods are easier to measure troop performance. Or rather, adult performance of running a troop. One of the more common ticket items of the 90s Wood Badge course was working the program so that all scouts earned 1st Class in their first year. Classes to teach all scouts the skills at the same time so they all advance at the same time. No independence there.

I once had a new SM of a 6 month old troop ask my advice of what else his scouts could do on campouts besides advancement. I asked him how much free time they had scheduled in their program. He said they don't do free time because they were afraid the scouts would just get in trouble. The Same SM questioned me another time about how to get his scouts to run the PLC meeting. When I asked how the SPL planned his meetings, he said the SM plans and runs the meetings because the boys aren't mature enough until age 14. 

To be fair to this SM, when he realized he was not a good SM because of his lack of experience, he quit and brought in an adult Eagle.

These are little things, but I could go on and on. As I said, the adults aren't being mean or negligent, they just don't know. So, they do what appeals to them as adults. But adults and youth don't have the same life experiences, so they don't have the same expectations or goals. Adults want the Eagle, scout want to camp and fish. Adults leaders by age 12, Scouts want to hike and build fires. Adults want all the tents set up neatly in a row, scouts want to sleep under the stars. Adults wants lights out by 10:00, scouts want to talk about their dreams until they fall asleep. 

All boy run patrol method programs are a 50/50 team effort of the scouts AND adults learning and growing from the experiences together. If the adults are humble, they start to get pretty good after about 3 years. But, they have to be open minded about learning and changing. 

Hope that helps.

Barry

[Cubber]

@Eagledad  These sound like problems with Wood Badge and new leaders not being well trained. Are you saying these are female leader specific problems?

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, Cubber said:

@Eagledad  These sound like problems with Wood Badge and new leaders not being well trained. Are you saying these are female leader specific problems?

You asked the question but the answer completely went over your head. 

I don't think you really wanted to know. You just have and agenda. Not very scout like.

Barry

 

[RememberSchiff]

13 minutes ago, Cubber said:

@Eagledad  These sound like problems with Wood Badge and new leaders not being well trained. Are you saying these are female leader specific problems?

Agree, it does sound like Wood Badge training problems.

What I have seen with female troop leaders is a tendency to focus on specific program areas - scoutcraft, nature, hiking . Maybe advancement related, maybe just sticking with what they know.  Fishing, shooting sports not so much.

My $0.02

[Cubber]

15 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

You asked the question but the answer completely went over your head. 

I don't think you really wanted to know. You just have and agenda. Not very scout like.

Barry

 

Barry- I can see you took that differently than I intended. I'm being completely sincere here- honestly trying to understand. I read your answer and I guess it did go over my head because you referenced adults in general and changes in general, and an experience with one specific male leader?

I've only been with the BSA for 3 years and a CM for 2. I was a scout and my brother an Eagle, but that's the sum and total of my experience. Help me out. Is Wood badge a new thing created by or for female leaders, or has it been altered by or for them (seriously honest naive question)?  Are females setting policy, or there is a shift you see as a result of female leadership winning arguments over male leadership? Is this all just a change in society's approach to kids or is it really female leadership specific?

My council is super male dominated and I see almost no female leadership except at the cubscout level. Frankly I think parents in general are contributing to the trends you mentioned- not female leadership. I share your concerns about that. I think the independence is a huge factor and I want my son in a boy-led program that emphasizes that. I know he needs to do things on his own and make mistakes without my guidance or interference. 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Cubber
typo

[Cubber]

1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:

Agree, it does sound like Wood Badge training problems.

What I have seen with female troop leaders is a tendency to focus on specific program areas - scoutcraft, nature, hiking . Maybe advancement related, maybe just sticking with what they know.  Fishing, shooting sports not so much.

My $0.02

That makes sense. We teach what we know. There's definitely a gender disparity in those areas. Not for all, but many.