Messed Up Patrol Method

[David CO]

31 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Arguments for the Patrol Method: 

1. It is the only way to do Scouting. Anything else is NOT Scouting.

I know a number of current and former Lone Scouts, myself included, who would be highly offended by that blanket statement.

[Col. Flagg]

14 minutes ago, David CO said:

I know a number of current and former Lone Scouts, myself included, who would be highly offended by that blanket statement.

Lone Scouts is it's own program. So obviously one cannot do Boy Scouts and use the Patrol Method as a Lone Scout.

I would argue though, Lone Scouts as a program, does not do the Scout as much service as the traditional Scouting program. For my money, while Lone Scouts are a way to boys cut off from units geographically involved in Scouting, it is not the ideal way (or even preferred way) to deliver the Scouting program. The Aims and Methods of Scouting back this up. How can LS's exercise leadership, association with adults and use the patrol method as a single, solitary Scout? There's 3 of 8 "methods" that cannot be fully met.

I am not saying they are any less of a Scout. I am saying that the program is not a robust as the full Scouting program. In my opinion, the only way to get the full appreciation for the Scouting program is using the Patrol Method.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

I am not saying they are any less of a Scout. I am saying that the program is not a robust as the full Scouting program. In my opinion, the only way to get the full appreciation for the Scouting program is using the Patrol Method.

Nice backpedaling. I still don't agree with you, but I find this statement far less offensive than the first. 

[Col. Flagg]

26 minutes ago, David CO said:

Nice backpedaling. I still don't agree with you, but I find this statement far less offensive than the first. 

You might want to take the chip off your shoulder. Not everyone who posts is trying to persecute you.

I made a statement and then explained it further. That's not back peddling. That's answering someone who is overly sensitive and tries to find fault or argument with just about anything. 

What I wrote was nothing that hasn't been written in here before.

[MattR]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

And don't ask for everything all at once. Pick a few examples where the adults are too close to the scouts and ask them to give the boys room.

@Eagle94-A1, this is really good advice that will make your life easier.

One way to make the problem smaller is to pick one simple task, like menus, signing off on Tenderfoot reqs, uniforms. Another is to pick a smaller group of scouts to work with. A patrol might work. Younger scouts will more likely trust you but older scouts that want more room might also trust you. Whatever section you'd like to work with it should have very clear boundaries. A patrol, the QM, make it distinct. The wolf patrol doing tenderfoot advancement, for example. I'd stay away from something vague like "all the younger scouts."

You will also need to get a lot of adults to buy into this. The SM for starters, the parents of the scouts you're working with, unless I wasn't clear, the scouts as well, the PLC. Set up a way to evaluate how it's going.

[David CO]

15 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

That's answering someone who is overly sensitive and tries to find fault or argument with just about anything. 

Are these personal attacks really necessary?

[RememberSchiff]

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

Are these personal attacks really necessary?

NO they are not. Let's stick to the topic please.

[Eagle94-A1]

Yes,  please stick to the topic. This topic is extremely important to me as I want my sons and their friends to have as good, if not better, Scouting experience than I had. My oldest picked the troop because he liked it. But I wanted him visit it after I found out the #1 choice for both of us went to Trails Life. The troop had some minor issues at the time, but it had so much potential. Things were going well until a new batch of Scouts/parents/Scouters came in and issues arose. Not only growing to fast to soon, but also different ideas on how the troop is suppose to be run. We eventually worked that out, but then this newest batch came in. Now it looks like it is starting all over again, except worse. At least some compromise was given to let the Scouts have some responsibility for teaching the new scouts, dealing with their own issues, etc. It now appears that the new parents,who are use to doing everything for their sons, are trying to take away all the work the Scouts have put in, and the current SM and potential new SM are all for it.

[Stosh]

https://www.scouting.org/Home/GuideToAdvancement/SpecialConsiderations.aspx

Comparing regular Cub and Boy Scout programs with Lone Cub and Scout programs is apples and oranges.  High School aged youth in Boy Scout, Sea Scouts, Venturing, STEM, Learning for Life and Lone Scouting are all subject to different dynamics within the scope of BSA.  Only Boy Scouts use the patrol method.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Stosh

[David CO]

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yes,  please stick to the topic. 

Which one? You keep raising so many different issues. Would you like us to focus on just one of them?

 

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, David CO said:

Which one? You keep raising so many different issues. Would you like us to focus on just one of them?

 

How to convince adults to stick with the Patrol Method.  Specifically

What are your arguments for patrol method?

How would you go about convincing adults to let Scouts sign off on advancement?

How would you go about convincing adults le tthe Scouts make their own decisions, and suffer the consequences?

How do you convince adults that the Scouts really know who the best leaders are?

How would you convince adults that having families camp with the troop is a bad idea?

Anything else i'm missing.

[David CO]

Got it. You want to convince the other adults to come over to your point of view. 

If they are coming in to the meeting with the same goal, to convince you to come over to their point of view, then you are both out of luck. 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by David CO

[David CO]

13 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

This topic is extremely important to me 

It is probably important to them as well. They have kids too.

[RememberSchiff]

20 minutes ago, David CO said:

Got it. You want to convince the other adults to come over to your point of view. 

If they are coming in to the meeting with the same goal, to convince you to come over to their point of view, then you are both out of luck. 

 

Good point with scouts in the middle. Maybe these arguments should come from some well-spoken scouts?

My $0.02

[qwazse]

44 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Good point with scouts in the middle. Maybe these arguments should come from some well-spoken scouts?...

An articulate SPL can do incredible things in working a crowd of adults. But, not every boy is gifted in that area.

The fact is, adults will put their boys in patrols at a distance from one another only when they see patrols working.

Since this fall, our PLC has had a15-20 minute huddle after every meeting, either the SM or I drop in to field any questions (which are getting fewer, but tougher to answer). The committee is backing off as the boys are stepping up. It's still tough for some of them to see the organized chaos and keep a tight lip. But I am hearing things like "I never thought it could work like this."

Regarding some of those tough-to-answer questions, if I have a moment a start a topic for each one.