Scouts and Fixed Blades; New viewpoint

[numbersnerd]

1 minute ago, NJCubScouter said:

That's ridiculous.

Don't kids still use plastic knives to eat lunch in the cafeteria?  Is that a weapon too?

Then you probably haven't seen a school lunch recently! Most of it doesn't need it. It's either hand held or so soft cutting is needless. I'm amazed at the lack of table manners and utensil ability I see on display by kids (say, 8 and up) and this discussion made me realize the food trends we have gravitated to are probably a big reason why kids are dumbfounded when confronted with 'traditional' eating scenarios. 

[NJCubScouter]

 

5 minutes ago, numbersnerd said:

Then you probably haven't seen a school lunch recently! Most of it doesn't need it. It's either hand held or so soft cutting is needless. I'm amazed at the lack of table manners and utensil ability I see on display by kids (say, 8 and up) and this discussion made me realize the food trends we have gravitated to are probably a big reason why kids are dumbfounded when confronted with 'traditional' eating scenarios. 

I haven't, in a very long time.  I don't think I was ever in a school lunchroom (during lunch) during all the time my kids were in school.  So I guess the last time would be when I graduated high school - 41 years ago.  At that time, there were plastic knives. (Not that a plastic knife could cut some of the mystery meat anyway, but that's a discussion for another time and place.)

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

That's ridiculous.

Don't kids still use plastic knives to eat lunch in the cafeteria?  Is that a weapon too?

We had an incident in my locale recently of someone jamming a pen through someone else's hand.  Does that mean all pens, pencils, protractors, biology scalpels and probes, etc. are now outlawed and need to be digitized for on-line learning.  I hate to think of the day when my scouts show up at the bank for doing the paper work on a house closing and they have to put an X where there name is because they haven't been taught to sign their name with a pen.  Hey People, this is your Brave New World!  Your New Norm!  Times are changing and one has to adapt to it.  The day is soon upon us where one's Drill Sergeant of yesterday is more like a grandmother with milk and cookies compared to what's coming down the pike.

[Col. Flagg]

2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think most people who THINK they favor "zero tolerance" don't really understand what it means:  No exceptions, no consideration of circumstances, no discretion, nothing.  I would bet there are people who favor "zero tolerance" who, if you told them the story of the Scout who had a small knife safely locked away in an emergency kit in his car and was suspended from school for it, would say, "Oh, THAT is going too far."  In other words, they would consider the circumstances - which means they are not really for zero tolerance.

I think the break down is in the definition. Zero tolerance should not mean leaving good judgement at the door. The law can be written to have judgement exercised while applying the intent of the rule.

Suspending a third grader for bringing a "splork" to school is different from another kid bringing a buck knife to school. Yes, even then both can be accidents and require judgement. And when one uses judgement you quickly discern which was truly an accident and which one wasn't.

[Stosh]

Special Forces training teaches that anything can be weaponized.  With that as our guide we could be in a heap of trouble trying to redefine the world.

[SSScout]

It is a New World.   Back in my day, us student  HSchool Stage Crew were expected to be available for AV duty most any time the office would call on us. Movie projector, slides, tape deck, plugs, we were trained by one of the shop teachers.  We carried pliers, multi end screwdrivers, rigging knife and other stuff all day on our belt.  We wired the stage lighting, cut and pulled extension cords, Klieg lights, set up and worked on 25  foot high scaffolds. I remember pulling out and replacing a defective wire rheostat , big sucker, must have weighed 20 pounds,  on the light control board. Drama teacher ordered the replacement, me and my buddies did the installation. The school janitor ("Building Engineer") and us got along famously.  Stripping off insulation just so from a  "00" gauge cable.... 

[Stosh]

And today, if it isn't able to be plugged into the back of an X-Box with the fingers, it isn't allowed.  

[NJCubScouter]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

We had an incident in my locale recently of someone jamming a pen through someone else's hand.  Does that mean all pens, pencils, protractors, biology scalpels and probes, etc. are now outlawed and need to be digitized for on-line learning.  I hate to think of the day when my scouts show up at the bank for doing the paper work on a house closing and they have to put an X where there name is because they haven't been taught to sign their name with a pen.  Hey People, this is your Brave New World!  Your New Norm!  Times are changing and one has to adapt to it.  The day is soon upon us where one's Drill Sergeant of yesterday is more like a grandmother with milk and cookies compared to what's coming down the pike.

I think I have posted about this before, one July day about 12 years ago my son was in the summer camp dining hall, eating his breakfast with the rest of the troop, when an argument broke out between a first-year Scout and an older Scout.  The first-year Scout "settled" the argument by stabbing the older Scout in the hand with his plastic fork.  (My son was sitting the closest to the stabbed hand other than the Scout to whom it was attached, so he was Witness # 1 for the Prosecution.  And this was the last meal before the end of camp, so I get to the camp to pick up my son and am told he is being questioned by the Scoutmaster!) 

As far as I know the camp did not stop supplying forks for meals (and the first-year Scout was placed in the care of his parents, and was never seen in the troop again.)

Edited December 8, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Stosh]

A few minutes during new scout orientation might be on the subject of anger management.  I think it falls under A Scout is Friendly.  What we often forget is - it isn't the "weapon" that's the problem, it's the person holding it.  I guess in the long run, I"m more worried about the person's attitude than the knife on his belt.

[NJCubScouter]

10 minutes ago, Stosh said:

A few minutes during new scout orientation might be on the subject of anger management.  I think it falls under A Scout is Friendly.  What we often forget is - it isn't the "weapon" that's the problem, it's the person holding it.  I guess in the long run, I"m more worried about the person's attitude than the knife on his belt.

It might.  In the example I gave above, I doubt that a brief, abstract mention of anger management would have made a difference when the first-year Scout felt that he was under verbal attack by an older and larger Scout, and decided that the best answer was a stab in the hand with a plastic fork.  But it can't hurt to try.  I would dispute the idea that "it isn't the weapon that's the problem, it's the person holding it."  Sometimes it's both, but not in this particular case.  There was a reason for the Scout to have the plastic fork in his hand while eating breakfast.  There are other items that would not be appropriate to have in the dining hall.

Edited December 8, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[numbersnerd]

18 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

 I would dispute the idea that "it isn't the weapon that's the problem, it's the person holding it."  Sometimes it's both, but not in this particular case.  There was a reason for the Scout to have the plastic fork in his hand while eating breakfast.  There are other items that would not be appropriate to have in the dining hall.

I'm fairly sure that a fair majority of those eating in the dining hall had a fork as well and didn't use it that way. So yes, it IS the person, not the object.

 

[TAHAWK]

If knives cause violence, do spoons cause obesity?

Student expelled by Superintendent Hutchings for using electronic device at High School contraary to "zer9 tolerance" rule banning them unless authorized by staff.  Expulsion reversed when victim got  lawyer.

"Todd Kotler cited two studies (one from the American Psychological Association and one from a family law journal) that argue persuasively that zero-tolerance policies like Hutchings' aren't effective methods to rehabilitate and reform misbehaving children. Kotler, along with Trumbo, felt that punishments should be commensurate with the infraction.  

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by TAHAWK

[clemlaw]

On 12/6/2017 at 4:33 PM, perdidochas said:

Locally, the schools have a rule about such situations--it's called safe harbor, and basically, if a child realizes that they accidentally have a knife or lighter on them, if they turn it into the teacher as soon as they realize it, it will simply be confiscated until a parent can come pick it up. However, if they show it off to another child, or if it slips out of their pocket, then punishments will be enacted for the contraband. It's a pretty reasonable rule.  

The schools in my area do NOT have that "safe harbor" rule.  However, I'm aware of one case where a student told a teacher that he accidentally had a pocket knife in his backpack.  And the teacher wisely told the student to just leave it there until the end of the day.  But if the teacher had decided to go by the book, the kid would have been in a lot of trouble.

What I've told my kids, and what I've told other scouts to talk to their parents about is this:  If they discover that they accidentally have a knife or some other contraband in their possession, then they should go to the teacher and say that they need to call their parents because it is an emergency.  They should keep insisting, keep saying that it is an emergency, but not state the nature of the emergency.

When they call me, they are instructed to say something along the lines of, "I'm calling about that thing you said I should call about and say it is an emergency."

At that point, I would go to school and ask to speak to them privately.  I would then take possession of their backpack, jacket, or whatever item was involved, and take it home myself.  If I was asked what was going on, I would explain that there had been an emergency, but that it is now resolved.

I believe that most teachers and administrators would exercise some common sense if they were told that a kid accidentally had a pocket knife in his jacket.  But unfortunately, they are not required to do so, so I've decided to err on the side of caution.

[RememberSchiff]

@clemlaw,  thanks that is great work-around.

[NJCubScouter]

On 12/8/2017 at 12:44 PM, Col. Flagg said:

I think the break down is in the definition. Zero tolerance should not mean leaving good judgement at the door. The law can be written to have judgement exercised while applying the intent of the rule.

Suspending a third grader for bringing a "splork" to school is different from another kid bringing a buck knife to school. Yes, even then both can be accidents and require judgement. And when one uses judgement you quickly discern which was truly an accident and which one wasn't.

Zero tolerance DOES mean "leaving good judgment at the door."  It's zero tolerance.  No use of judgment, no consideration of circumstances, no exceptions.  If you are using judgment to say some infractions are excused because of the circumstances, it's not zero tolerance.  That's why zero tolerance is a bad idea.  It "sounds" good to many people, but as I said before, many of those people don't understand what it means.