Which came first Patrol or Troop?

[skeptic]

Perhaps there might be a connection to the original Browsea Experience.  Seems to me that BP put them in "patrols" then.  

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

Perhaps there might be a connection to the original Browsea Experience.  Seems to me that BP put them in "patrols" then.  

Yes, the original 22 Boy Scouts at Brownsea were divided into 4 patrols: the Curlews, Ravens, Bulls, and Wolves. BP experimented with both 5 man and 6 man patrols.

 

Eagle94-a1

Cocky Curlew, BA22

[qwazse]

23 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yes, the original 22 Boy Scouts at Brownsea were divided into 4 patrols: the Curlews, Ravens, Bulls, and Wolves. BP experimented with both 5 man and 6 man patrols. ...

So, they First joined his troop, then were assigned to patrols.

Hmmm ...

[skeptic]

23 hours ago, qwazse said:

So, they First joined his troop, then were assigned to patrols.

Hmmm ...

Okay.  We are talking about the very first one, and it was an experiment.  Of course, you likely are simply pushing buttons.  

 

[qwazse]

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

Okay.  We are talking about the very first one, and it was an experiment.  Of course, you likely are simply pushing buttons.  

Pushing buttons? Well I was either tapping keys or glass!

Look, I ASMed a one patrol troop. They still insisted on having SPL ASPL Pl and APL. Aside from that bit of goofiness, they were actually doing pretty good for themselves, and we told them so regularly.

Still, when the opportunity availed itself, they opted to merge with a troop that had spun off from them. So, my experience suggests that boys aren't satisfied with being in a patrol if they can be under the same roof with other patrols. Clip-quoting B-P and GBB does nothing to suppress that sentiment.

So, applying this to the topic, a one-patrol BSA troop and a one-patrol BSA4G troop might work closely together simply because it's more scout-like being two patrols in a unit than two units of a patrol each.

[TAHAWK]

B-P's advice to a boy who wanted to become a Scout was to join a patrol or get together a patrol. 

The issue, to B-P and Bill and B.S.A. in 2017 (according to what they write most of the time), is where the Scouts spend their Scouting time.  The bulk is supposed to be spent in the small group context, with a number of claimed benefits.  Same theory since 1907 in the UK and 1930 in the U.S., although UK "Patrol System"  still has adult-appointed leaders (I am told by Scouters and the Scouting Association.  Cambridge? ).  

That idea, or Bill's "Patrol Method," is hardly inconsistent with multiple patrols in a "troop."  My very Patrol Method troop as a Scout had six patrols and two Explorer crews (after 1958 two Senior Scout patrols). Bill repeatedly said that a Patrol Leader, after his loyalty to his patrol, owed loyalty to his troop, being part of the troop leadership team.  But you know that.

A single team makes for a rather limited "season."

Our council for decades has had many "troops" with fewer than ten active Scouts.  They are "troops" because BSA since 1969,  judged by behavior, wants Boy Scout "units" to be "troops" and only "troops."  Before 1969, BSA was OK with registered patrols ("Neighborhood Patrols").  If the adults would let these mini-troops be run by Scouts, they  would not be far enough away from the small group dynamic to get upset about - 8, 9, 10 - NBD.  It's just a label at that scale.

Given the near death of the Patrol Method (and coincidentally, Scouting as a particularly relevant movement) in the U.S. (market share now under 5%), it would hardly be surprising for Scouts to opt for the familiar - the troop, perhaps even the norm among troops around here - the troop run by adults.  It is harder to be responsible than to let someone else run the camping/play club for boys, especially when the principal authority figures communicate by word and, especially, deed that they are supposed to be in charge and resist the Patrol Method - that has probably never been explained to them.

The argument is that, since whatever this we are trying is spiraling downhill, why not try Boy Scouting as defined since 1930 and as officially defined today -- whether enforced, encouraged, or even taught coherently.  It might work.  It was working better than what we have today when official training stopped explaining the Patrol Method circa the dawn of the "Improved Scouting Program." The Patrol Method was not eliminated, per the national head of training until a couple of years ago, merely "misplaced," along with much of the "Outdoor Method."

Yes, many things have changed in forty-five years other than BSA fumbling training.  Society has changed.  More things to do.  Adults reluctant to join anything.  But some think we might try again, in basic structure and program, what did work.  If not, stop pretending.  Declare the age of the "troop method." and be done with it.

And given everything else that you know about B-P and the "Patrol System," yes:, "pushing buttons."

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

On 11/29/2017 at 9:26 PM, Eagledad said:

Or give the Scouts more control.

 

Barry

In an ideal world,  but I don't see it applied very often in the world of reality.  I would even consider staying on with co-ed scouting if the program was uniquely patrol method,  but it is destined to be nothing more than another adult led youth program.   Those are dime-a-dozen entertainment programs that don't allow the youth to grow and develop.   I  can find those opportunities closer to home and run more easily than the convoluted, poorly defined BSA program.

[Stosh]

Is it just me, or does it seem unfortunate that this thread is under Issues and Politics instead of the Patrol Method?

[RememberSchiff]

6 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Is it just me, or does it seem unfortunate that this thread is under Issues and Politics instead of the Patrol Method?

Whence it began in another Issues and Politics thread.

Now moved to Patrol Method.

Edited December 2, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[Eagle94-A1]

I'm going by memory, so bear with me.

The PATROL came first.

When BP wrote his Aids to Scouting: NCOs and Men prior to 1905, he was surprised to find many boys creating their patrols and doing what he wrote for the military on their own. These impromptu patrols are one of the things that led to the experiment at Brownsea Island in 1907.

Even at Brownsea, he separated those first 22 Scouts into patrols: Wolves, Bulls, Ravens, and CURLEWS! (   yes I'm a Cocky Curlew of the  Brownsea Camp...)  No where was the term "troop" used at Brownsea as far as I recall.

Here is where it gets interesting, and memory can prove wrong. When Scouting for Boys was printed in a series of articles, patrols were springing up everywhere. Patrols had no adult supervision, and were getting into trouble. One story I read involved a patrol trespassing on property they were camping on. All was well, but BP got wind of it, and decided Scoutmasters needed to be involved in the process for supervision. And Scouting For Boys the book was written with only 2 page references to Scoutmasters. At least in the World Brotherhood Edition of Scouting for Boys based upon William Hillcourt's version ( requirements for ranks were removed, more BP art, and oriented to the Canadian Scouts.') SO IT IS AN EDITED VERSION OF THE ORIGINAL BOOK! ( emphasis)

In the book, "Patrol" is used on 29 Pages compared to "Troop" on 6 pages.  So obviously B-P, and later William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, emphasized the importance of the patrol over the troop.

BUT WHAT CAME FIRST, EAGLE94-A1, THE PATROL OR THE TROOP? 

Apparently it is the.... PATROL.  On page 30  It states  "To be a Scout you should join a Scout PATROL (emphasis added) or a Scout Troop in you neighborhood....." Page 38 defines a Scout Troop as "...two or more patrols of six to eight boys."

So according to B-P, A troop cannot exist until 2 or more patrols are formed.

 

Hope this helps.

[qwazse]

5 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Whence it began in another Issues and Politics thread.

Now moved to Patrol Method.

I think it's great that this spins into its own thread. The title only tangentially catches my point: that it's folly to separate patrols from troops and think you can get away with calling it scouting.

I stroll through woods and parks and see patrols of boys (along with the occasional brazen girl) all the time. So, in the sense of a gang, patrols form with or without scouting. It's how young humans fill social vacuums. Modern young humans have the advantage of easy access to written word around which to actualize their naturally forming patrols.

The troop, however, gives the patrol legitimacy, location, legacy, and proximity to other patrols. That's why we can equally reemphasise E94s quote:

To be a scout you should join a patrol or a Scout Troop in your neighborhood.

Either or, not first one, then the other. But clearly, even as B-P writes, the troop is fast becoming the vehicle by which boys find great patrols, while the patrol is only rarely a vehicle by which boys find great troops.

It would be interesting if when a troop drops to 10 boys, the CO would receive a certificate for hosting a patrol, and the troop number gets suspended. But we can be fairly confident that will never happen  in the US.

[RememberSchiff]

 

What's that Leonardo? What about a Lone Scout?

[David CO]

6 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

What about a Lone Scout?

A Lone Scout has neither a troop nor a patrol.

[David CO]

6 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Now moved to Patrol Method.

Are you indicating a moderator bias here? Since we have no forum for Troop Method, I would have preferred that it be left where it was.

[TAHAWK]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

I think it's great that this spins into its own thread. The title only tangentially catches my point: that it's folly to separate patrols from troops and think you can get away with calling it scouting."

I am not sure exactly what you mean.

Surely, since 1969, a "Boy Scout" (TM B.S.A) is registered in a "troop," which may consist of as few as five Scouts, and in this area often has under ten active Scout members. Much of what Bill wrote about a patrol's (and its PL's) role in a troop makes less sense in this declining age when many "troops" are patrol size.

Beyond that fact, since 1930 B.S.A. has insisted that a Boy Scout primarily experiences Boy Scouting in the context of a "small" team of Boy Scouts called a "patrol," which is to have separate "life," "spirit," and program.

If you mean to say that patrols, when operating separately from other Boy Scouts, are not engaged in "scouting," you disagree with B.S.A. and all the "authorities" down through the history of Scouting and of B.S.A.

Do you feel adults can deny patrols any separate life and still call it "Boy Scouting"?   Wouldn't that more fairly be called the "Troop Method," and where do I find that method defined in B.S.A. literature?

"The patrol method isn’t one way to run a troop. It’s the only way.”  B.S.A., Scouting.org   (2014)

 “You join a patrol, or raise a patrol yourself….”          Baden-Powell, Scouting for Boys (1908)

“The Patrol System is the one essential feature in which Scout training differs from that of all other organizations….”

                     Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership at p. 29.

“Unless the patrol method is in operation, you don’t really have a Boy Scout troop.”   B.S.A., Scouting.org (citing Baden-Powell) (September, 2015)

“The patrol method isn’t one way to run a troop. It’s the only way.”  B.S.A., Scouting.org   (2014)

Edited December 2, 2017 by TAHAWK