TampaTurtle: Unneeded parents on hikes

[Eagle94-A1]

Going to go off on a tangent. And moderators, if this is going too far off base, let me know.

 

A recent story I was told keeps hitting me when I see this thread. Not only should parents stay out of they way, but I'm thinking sometimes it's a good thing for adult Scouters to miss something so their sons can experience stuff with out them around. I say that because I was told about a Scout whose dad has been on every single trip since he has been a Cub Scout. Heck, the kid has never done anything outside of Scouting without either his dad or mom attending.  Now the son is getting ready to graduate and is terrified of leaving home and being by himself.

Scout has been offered several out of state athletic scholarships, but will not take them because he is afraid to leave home. Scout won't even look at in-state colleges, including the one where his aunt lives. She has offered to put him up. Instead he wants either to go tot he local private college, or go to the community college, and then transfer to an in-state college he can do online courses so he can stay home with dad.

 

[Col. Flagg]

10 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

We're talking about parents here, not girls.  We have at least 100 recent threads about girls.  Ok, it's probably only about 10-12, but that's still a lot.

As for the Great Pink T-shirt Conspiracy, my response is probably the same as it was a couple of months ago when you brought up the exact same point.  (Though wasn't the shirt purple then?  Maybe it was both, like tie-dye.)  Maybe you're right, they added a pink t-shirt to their catalog because they already knew they were going to have more girls in the BSA.  Or maybe they started selling a pink t-shirt because they thought they could make money from a pink t-shirt.  See, I'm at least as cynical as you are, but my cynicism leads me to the conclusion that virtually everything that National does (at least, everything they do on purpose) is about money. Or to put it another way, sometimes a t-shirt is just a t-shirt.

ROFL. Okay. Whatever you say.

Odd how in their 100 year history BSA hasn't bothered to market pink girl's t-shirts (or any other girls shirts beyond those for female Scouters and Venturing) before. But you're right, of course, it's just happenstance and driven by a very sudden realization that there are girls on the planet and maybe they want a Boy Scout t-shirt in pink.  

Regarding parents or family, same issue here. If you think the sudden emphasis on family is simply about "family access" then that's your prerogative. BSA's recent history of saying one thing and doing another says otherwise. Time will tell just how far this whole "family" issue goes, but we are already seeing it in my local units. Just last night at RT there were questions about how the district plans to integrate "family" in to upcoming Boy Scout events like Camporee. Don't tell me "family" is about access anything other than making the Boy Scout program eventually in to a coed, integrated program. It is happening...now.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[Eagle94-A1]

I think what Col. Flagg is trying to point out is that national's marketing and publishing folks are pushing articles and merchandise in an attempt to get us use to the changes that are coming before they happen.  And I do agree with him. It seems as if national is trying to get us acclimated to the idea before they announce it.

And in addition to the family camping articles with Boy Scout age youth, has anyone seen some of the PSAs aout Scouting for the whole family that have the Boy Scouts camping and doing things with Cub Scouts?  If I can find the link, i'll post

[Eagle94-A1]

5 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

 Time will tell just how far this whole "family" issue goes, but we are already seeing it in my local units. Just last night at RT there were questions about how the district plans to integrate "family" in to upcoming Boy Scout events like Camporee. Don't tell me "family" is about access anything other than making the Boy Scout program eventually in to a coed, integrated program. It is happening...now.

 

HOLY CRAP! You now got me thinking about my camporee.

My DE created a Cub Scout event the same weekend and location as our camporee. Initially no one knew about it, and I posted it was a mistake and that no Cub Scout event was planned. Then I got a nastygram from the DE saying in no uncertain terms that the Cub event WILL go on, and that it will not interfere with the Camporee.

Well it did. I had to spend extra money buying supplies to mark off the Cub Scout area from a campsite that 2 troops were using. I also had to spend time rearranging events and reshooting the compass course since one event was now in the Cub area, and the course took them through the Cub area. Then when the DE could not make it, I got left hanging. And supposedly Cubs were not suppose to camp, but I know of at least 1 that did. And I got all kinds of heck when I tried to tell the troop that it wasn't allowed. Eventually I said the heck with it since I told the DE that there would be Cubs camping, even if they were not suppose to.

Maybe getting the camporee "family friendly" was the point of him making a Cub event the same place and time?

[Col. Flagg]

36 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

HOLY CRAP! You now got me thinking about my camporee.

My DE created a Cub Scout event the same weekend and location as our camporee. Initially no one knew about it, and I posted it was a mistake and that no Cub Scout event was planned. Then I got a nastygram from the DE saying in no uncertain terms that the Cub event WILL go on, and that it will not interfere with the Camporee.

Yup, same here. And guess what? The DE, along with the whole district committee, was trying to sell the units on -- now get this -- making sure the events at camporee where "Cub Friendly". Those were their EXACT words. Then they spent about the rest of the meeting discussing the age appropriate matrix and asking units to sign up for age-friendly games for the Cubs. My SPL leaned over and told me we'd have to reschedule our April camp out, as there was no way in heck he could sell to the troop going to an event where we were essentially hosting events for Cubs.

I followed the ensuing discussion on the troop's WhatApp thread. As expected, the PLC revolted and now, instead of going to Camporee, we are doing a high adventure canoe trip.  I received the email to let our district know "thanks, but we're going elsewhere" from the SPL about an hour ago.

God I *love* when boy-led, patrol method works.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

Yup, same here. And guess what? The DE, along with the whole district committee, was trying to sell the units on -- now get this -- making sure the events at camporee where "Cub Friendly".

 

Ok, I know I made the camporee Webelos Friendly. Heck all the events save one were based upon Wilderness Survival MB, and Castaway Adventure Badge is  Wilderness Survival MB lite. So it was natural. Plus events were optional for the Webelos. Their 'camporee" comes in March. The purpose  of Webelos attending is to A) get them use to their potential troop and help with Recruiting B) Show them what to expect as Boy Scouts, and C ) HAVE FUN!

But "Cub Friendly?"

 

An aside, we had one local camp ground reopen, and one new parents is happy b/c it is 500' from city limits. I have a feeling the PLC will be having a "Heck No" over that suggestion.

[perdidochas]

On 11/29/2017 at 9:27 AM, Tampa Turtle said:

At the Troop meeting last night it was interesting to observe some of the reactions from the decision seeping into the Troop. A number of the Mom's of the younger to middle scouts were saying they thought it was great that females would be more welcome in the program. (OK so far). At that point there was a leap that Mom's could now be more welcome at the campouts as visitors. Three of them said that they wanted to go on the annual AT hike with their 11 to 13 year old sons and lobbied the Committee Chair that since the boys were young and the moms were fairly new hikers could they plan an easier trip for next summer. They were very excited. (I though "uh-oh")

 

When the news of this quietly spread later in the evening five of six of the most senior boys (most have 300 miles of backpacking) pulled their names from the sign up list. I overheard one saying "the adults are watering things down and making it too easy". (The AT hike has generally been an annual rite of passage-younger guys have to do a lot of practice hikes to show they are up to it- and the last year the trip was shortened by  a day when the Troop relented and let a younger guy go who was not ready but the mom (who was also not ready) insisted she go to help him --it did not set a good precedent). A mom told her son he was being a bad sport and that the point of the AT hike should be on making more the beauty of the wilderness accessible to everyone versus some kind of endurance test. (This directly conflicted with the boys who like to plan a hike that has some challenges -- they are also brutal in their recommendations to specific Dad's needs to get in shape if they are going)

 

My son (who just aged out) did not say a thing but later at home said "I am not sure what is going on but after hearing all the mom's I do not think we hit bottom yet". (He actually supports girls in scouts BTW). He did say Mom's and Dad's seem to approach things (injuries, missed equipment, conflicts) differently. Despite my efforts to explain the OFFICIAL position on what BSA has said (I would like to encourage him to stay engaged) he is INTERPRETING the recent announcement (along with things like Merit Badge Academies) as "making Boy Scouts more like Girl Scouts". 

 

Three boys asked a dad if he would be willing to do a 'real' hiking trip outside of scouts over spring break. There was some renewed interest in Philmont. On the upside some of the more sluggish Life Scouts seem to be in over-drive to work on remaining requirements so they can "hurry and get out sooner". 

 

I knew this year would be a struggle "a rebuilding year" as the Troop seems to go up and down as there is Scout, Parent, and Scout turnover but the recent change seemed to hit us at a bad point. I sense we are going to lose many of our middle and older boys. There are a lot of reasons for that--to be honest many of the boys who are matriculating up seem to want less adventure and more classroom style scouting focused on advancement -- there is a cultural issue going on. But I fear what we are losing are those boys who would really benefit from a less 'school like' atmosphere and that 'adventurous image' of the BSA brand is an easier sell for those boys when it is an entry to the male world. It was extremely useful for my two sons who needed the outlet and achievement and channeled male crudity to get them through a rough patch, I am hoping that program will still be available for other boys.

I'm noticing the above in my son's old troop (they have aged out/lost interest).  They seem to be watering down some of what I and the SM when I was ASM had built up.  IMHO, if you have the leadership numbers, a good way to do it would be to have two troop backpacking trips--an easier one, and your normal one.  We had an annual backpacking trip on the same weekend as the district camporee, and it worked well.  Our older boys were burnt out on camporees, and our younger boys weren't ready for backpacking (didn't have the size, strength or gear for it).  

[Stosh]

When I had a full complement of patrols 1-NSP, 2-Regular, and 1-Venture, we frequently had patrols doing varying age appropriate activities.  Worked well.

[perdidochas]

On 11/30/2017 at 2:28 PM, Tampa Turtle said:

I think Son#1 was not happy when Son#2 joined the Troop. And when Son#2 was his SPL.

In my case, Son #1 loved it when Son #2 was his SPL.  He loved watching his brother do the hard work.  

[perdidochas]

On 12/1/2017 at 2:05 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Going to go off on a tangent. And moderators, if this is going too far off base, let me know.

 

A recent story I was told keeps hitting me when I see this thread. Not only should parents stay out of they way, but I'm thinking sometimes it's a good thing for adult Scouters to miss something so their sons can experience stuff with out them around. I say that because I was told about a Scout whose dad has been on every single trip since he has been a Cub Scout. Heck, the kid has never done anything outside of Scouting without either his dad or mom attending.  Now the son is getting ready to graduate and is terrified of leaving home and being by himself.

Scout has been offered several out of state athletic scholarships, but will not take them because he is afraid to leave home. Scout won't even look at in-state colleges, including the one where his aunt lives. She has offered to put him up. Instead he wants either to go tot he local private college, or go to the community college, and then transfer to an in-state college he can do online courses so he can stay home with dad.

 

I agree 100% as a former Scouter with two sons that became Eagles, I didn't go to all outings for that reason.  Didn't go to summer camp until my boys were past First Class.  

[Stosh]

One of the things we often forget in Scouting is that we are teaching the boys independence.  That in and of itself runs counter to today's parental control of the child.  40 years ago I took a course in college titled, "Child Development".  Too bad that, along with many other things in life, has changed.  Childhood back then was defined as ending at 18 years of age.  Now it's defined as when they move out of the basement.

[MattR]

I went on most of the campouts my son was on and all of the high adventures. In hindsight I was really glad I went with him because three months after he received his Eagle he took off to Argentina for a year long youth exchange program and we weren't allowed to even talk to him for the first month other than him telling us he made it. He did fine. Taking off for a weekend of independence is nothing compared to taking off for a year to a country where you don't even speak the language. He got into the program because of his scouting experience. The fact that I camped with him didn't hurt his experience. I do know that another scout that had done an exchange a year before my son convinced my son it would be fun.

I'm not sure why some kids stay at home but dad going on campouts with them likely isn't it.

[Eagle94-A1]

40 minutes ago, MattR said:

I'm not sure why some kids stay at home but dad going on campouts with them likely isn't it.

Sadly this is the case this go around. Kid talked to an ASM about the situation. I got involved because I help people go back to school at work. ASM thought I might be able to help.

[Back Pack]

7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Sadly this is the case this go around. Kid talked to an ASM about the situation. I got involved because I help people go back to school at work. ASM thought I might be able to help.

Talk to the dad then. My dad went on nearly all the camp outs I was on. He had to as Sm. But he stayed away from me and my patrol. I rode in different cars sometimes. It was an unspoken rule that we left each other alone. The only time I stayed home was when I was sick or one time we got in an argument before camp. If he’s just an ASM maybe the dad can stay home a few months. 

[Stosh]

In all the years of being in scouting my dad came out for a few minutes at a Camporee to "see what was going on".  He was registered as something for a year.  It had nothing to do with the troop, something on district level I think..  Other than that, my parents were not involved in scouting in any way. 

I do remember they chaperoned a band trip I was on in high school.  I saw them once in the hallway at the hotel.

All of us in the family knew that these activities, whether scouts, church or school, were OUR activities.  My parents had their activities which, of course, we were not involved with.  However, with that being said, we had a lot of family activities we did as a whole..

In today's society, with the breakdown in marriages, busy schedules, and a ton of other distractions. there are no longer any clear-cut definitions of independence.  Parents want to be friends with their kids and that bled over into having to share the activities as a "family".  I for one would never have liked having my parents constantly hanging around everything I was doing.  Hey, Mom and Dad, get a life and leave me to mine.  We camp as a family on every available weekend, we take 2 weeks vacation as a family, you're in the audience for everything we do, and we eat dinner every night as a family.  That's enough.

When I was 18 I had already moved out of the house and was living on my own.  All of us kids in the family did the same thing.  We actually looked forward to being on our own.