TampaTurtle: Unneeded parents on hikes

[NJCubScouter]

5 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

You are expecting BSA to be specific, purposeful and direct in their communications? You know better.  

Mike S. and his band of merry men/women are channeling Mr. Subliminal in most of what they are peddling. But if you look at a few issues of Scouting there are articles and pictures depicting families doing non-Cub stuff.

Their last 3-4 covers haven family camping, family hiking, family canoeing, etc. Great. For Cubs I love it. But what are the chances of 5-6 covers in ANY given year being dedicated to family stuff? Just a quick perusal of the past several years and I can find 2 from 2010-2016. In 2017 there are 6!!! Coincidence?

You can choose to predict the future based on magazine covers if you wish.  I choose not to.

[Stosh]

14 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I have seen most of those pictures and articles.  What I have not seen is any specific words either in those articles or anywhere else that say that the program is changing to expand the role of parents.  Have you?  (Other than just the word "family", I mean.)

Exactly what does the word family mean?  everywhere I look it includes Mom, Dad, brothers and sisters.   Where does that fit into the patrol method?  It doesn't!  The only way I can imagine is the Smith Patrol or Jones Patrol, and that is exactly what BP would find an abomination to the program.   Nothing I could imagine can destroy the program faster than family scouts, it is the death knell of the patrol method.

[ianwilkins]

54 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Exactly what does the word family mean?  everywhere I look it includes Mom, Dad, brothers and sisters.   Where does that fit into the patrol method?  It doesn't!  The only way I can imagine is the Smith Patrol or Jones Patrol, and that is exactly what BP would find an abomination to the program.   Nothing I could imagine can destroy the program faster than family scouts, it is the death knell of the patrol method.

Yup.

When I was a lad, my dad was a scout leader, and my mum ran the central stores, but I saw them about as much as any other scout would. Ok, maybe a little more. But they weren't hovering. It was the 80s, so that wasn't a thing. I was in my patrol, and that was that. Now with Explorers sometimes we have leaders kids who are explorers on camp, but we just get on with it. Sometimes we have leaders bringing their younger kids on camp because otherwise they couldn't make it. The kids generally get adopted by a few explorers, and sometimes the parent will take the younger kids away. It's never ideal, but we make it work. One leader ended up being called "dad" by everyone on camp. *But* it's ok if it's just one or two. And they know their place. If we had basically everyone with a parent or two and a little brother/sister...yeah, it'd be, ummm, no, not right.

[NJCubScouter]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Exactly what does the word family mean?  everywhere I look it includes Mom, Dad, brothers and sisters.   Where does that fit into the patrol method?  It doesn't!  The only way I can imagine is the Smith Patrol or Jones Patrol, and that is exactly what BP would find an abomination to the program.   Nothing I could imagine can destroy the program faster than family scouts, it is the death knell of the patrol method.

I agree with all of that.  All I am saying is that it seems, in this case, that the BSA has used a definition of "family" that is different from the common definition.

[Tampa Turtle]

21 hours ago, Stosh said:

Let me get this straight.  We are supposed to be doing the patrol method.  How do parents and siblings fit into the patrol method?  In  my humble opinion, they don't.  And then, what's the purpose of a parent/sibling patrol that hangs around 300' away?  Is that purpose useful?  In my humble opinion, no.

My main concern with this whole mixed bag thingy is that it might work when one has an adult run, troop program.  Then at least mom can wash the dishes and pick up camp while the boys run around doing nothing but getting into trouble someplace else. 

I've tried to be open on this whole process, but from my experience, co-ed and family are two different entities.  Co-ed in an all-boy environment is bad enough.  Mom and Dad and siblings, and the therapy dog, and friends of friends does nothing but distract and destroy the patrol method of scouting.  While one can pound a screw into wood with a hammer, it destroys the wood and the screw at the same time.  It's not ideal and if one is looking for mediocrity, this is a surefire way of getting it.

Oh gosh yes, the dog. Been there. I guess that is logical...my dog is a better member of the family than my boys.

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

I agree with all of that.  All I am saying is that it seems, in this case, that the BSA has used a definition of "family" that is different from the common definition.

Let's be clear about the double-speak. The buzzword they were attempting to insert was "family accessible" scouting. That was showing up in the CSE's early speeches back in 2015. He confirms this in his latest interview (https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/11/21/bsa-chief-answers-your-questions-about-welcoming-girls-into-bsa-programs/):

" I’ll give you just a real Reader’s Digest version of how we got to this point we’ve been on a journey for many years of trying to figure out how do we serve the whole family ..."

His point being, that for a growing segment of citizens, if we don't recruit their families, we'll never recruit the boys.

The hope (a term of my choosing because all the market research in the world basically builds some hopes and squelches others, but rarely offers certainty) is that BSA4G makes scouting accessible enough to families who would otherwise not enroll their boys in BSA to do so. It's sounds like a long shot, and BSA should say it may be. But, I'm sure the National Key 3 have been told it would be terrible marketing to say flat out "We're gonna recognize girls in our ranks -- if sponsors want -- to help us troll for their brothers." I as a scouter would rather that blunt of a speech. I've made good money on every jalopy that I've sold because I show the buyer everything that's wrong it. I keep being told that's not the way the world works, but I close sales in good time with the dollars I ask for in my pocket, make friends of some strangers, and let the dealers go deal.

 

Oops! I forgot what topic I was in! Anyway, machinations of National has nothing to do with the problem we have of incompetent parents wanting to force their way, untrained and unprepared, into activities boys have arranged.

Edited December 1, 2017 by qwazse

[Tampa Turtle]

While my family is a traditional nuclear family (Mom, Dad, 2 boys all living in same home, no divorces, special arrangements etc) it is not the majority in my Troop. And I have seen various parental figure step in at times so I imagine a concept of 'Family Camping' could lead to some interesting situations. Maybe Timmy (or Tammy now) camps with her patrol and bio-mom with her new blended family comes along and bio-dad with his new blended family does too. And former step parent with the half sister drops by just for the day and brings buster the dog because it is too short a time to board and too long to leave at home. 

The dog is a big hit with the boys except for the newbie who once got bit by a dog and wants to call his mom to get him now and at least since Timmy/Tammy's mom is here could she come out...

As Timmy's patrol is cooking dinner his bio-mom lets him know that Grandma is bringing pizza for the family out to the park and should they get any for him? Bio-Dad wanting to look like a sport proposes he will get enough pizza for the whole troop ("hooray!" says Timmy's patrol-"we don't have to cook"). He will swing by the Walmart in case anyone has forgotten anything. Since Shark Patrol has, again for the third campout this year, forgot propane for their stove they ask him can he get some for them. Now they don't have to figure out if you can cook Mac & Cheese over a campfire. 

While former step parent has left with the dog (because half sister is into dance and aren't they ALWAYS having practice!) newbie mom has shown up on site by now with her giant tent and decided to set up between the patrol and the adult area. "All right" thinks newbie "I'm sleeping with mommy tonight!".

Grandma gets there a little late because finding the campsite in the dark is hard but she brings S'mores because she LOVED them in Campfire Girls back in the day--hey boys let me teach you some campfire songs!

Bio-Dad shows up with the Pizza a bit late and a bit cold but no one complains because he brought a case of pringles.

Timmy's whole extended family take up most of the fire ring because who is not attracted by a nice campfire. The older boys clam up and stop telling the usual latest 'Dank Memes' jokes so they don't shock the visitors too much. The younger boys are happy because this is just like Cub Scouts.

In the morning the Troop wakes up to find most of Timmy's family tribe missing --they had tickets or something for Sunday--and Timmy is missing, we assume he went with one of his parents. Newbie and his best friend are packing up early --he is in junior rowing crew and they practice Sundays, too--and going with Mom. After all nothing else much is going on this morning and why do they have to return to the scout hut when it would save time for everyone to drive directly home!

What is left of Dragon Patrol ends up packing up almost the entire load of Troop gear. They consider throwing out their old unused food until they realize they better cook something for Cooking Merit Badge. Hot dogs will be easy!

Old Scouter the Scoutmaster sighs a heavy sigh...he may never get used to this new fangled Family Camping. Thank Heaven for Scout Juice! He knows attendance is going to be down the next week as the older kids drift away but figures he might be able to outlast Newbie's Mom and Timmy/Tammy's extended family as those kids never stick around much after First Class. 

[Col. Flagg]

13 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

You can choose to predict the future based on magazine covers if you wish.  I choose not to.

So you think that there's no relationship between a youth organization for boys offering a pink, girls t-shirt through their supply shop and their subsequent move to allow girls is unrelated?  Riiiight.

BSA has history of this slight-of-hand behavior, as well as their ambiguous (read:disingenuous) communication style.

You can choose to believe what you like, but you're sticking your head in the sand on this one.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[Tampa Turtle]

50 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

So you think that there's no relationship between a youth organization for boys offering a pink, girls t-shirt through their supply shop and their subsequent move to allow girls is unrelated?  Riiiight.

BSA has history of this slight-of-hand behavior, as well as their ambiguous (read:disingenuous) communication style.

You can choose to believe what you like, but you're sticking your head in the sand on this one.

As a dyslexic I see weird things--I thought it said " pink see through, girls t-shirt". Really. Maybe it was some unwanted ads on the side bleeding over. Got my attention though.

[RememberSchiff]

4 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I agree with all of that.  All I am saying is that it seems, in this case, that the BSA has used a definition of "family" that is different from the common definition.

Yes. and seemingly more than one definition of "family" and more than ne relationship with the common family.

Hard to say which I dislike more Family Scouting or family mentoring (my wording). The latter being where the BSA is telling my wife and I how to be a parent - when to do medicals, what meetings and discussions I should have with my child, ...

IMO, "family accessible" emphasizes convenience over quality of program.

Edited December 1, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[RememberSchiff]

Move Brady Patrol to its own topic.

 

[RememberSchiff]

Let's see if we can get back on topic.

[NJCubScouter]

1 hour ago, Tampa Turtle said:

As a dyslexic I see weird things--I thought it said " pink see through, girls t-shirt". Really. Maybe it was some unwanted ads on the side bleeding over. Got my attention though.

It's not that kind of shop.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

While my family is a traditional nuclear family (Mom, Dad, 2 boys all living in same home, no divorces, special arrangements etc) it is not the majority in my Troop. And I have seen various parental figure step in at times so I imagine a concept of 'Family Camping' could lead to some interesting situations. Maybe Timmy (or Tammy now) camps with her patrol and bio-mom with her new blended family comes along and bio-dad with his new blended family does too. And former step parent with the half sister drops by just for the day and brings buster the dog because it is too short a time to board and too long to leave at home. 

The dog is a big hit with the boys except for the newbie who once got bit by a dog and wants to call his mom to get him now and at least since Timmy/Tammy's mom is here could she come out...

As Timmy's patrol is cooking dinner his bio-mom lets him know that Grandma is bringing pizza for the family out to the park and should they get any for him? Bio-Dad wanting to look like a sport proposes he will get enough pizza for the whole troop ("hooray!" says Timmy's patrol-"we don't have to cook"). He will swing by the Walmart in case anyone has forgotten anything. Since Shark Patrol has, again for the third campout this year, forgot propane for their stove they ask him can he get some for them. Now they don't have to figure out if you can cook Mac & Cheese over a campfire. 

While former step parent has left with the dog (because half sister is into dance and aren't they ALWAYS having practice!) newbie mom has shown up on site by now with her giant tent and decided to set up between the patrol and the adult area. "All right" thinks newbie "I'm sleeping with mommy tonight!".

Grandma gets there a little late because finding the campsite in the dark is hard but she brings S'mores because she LOVED them in Campfire Girls back in the day--hey boys let me teach you some campfire songs!

Bio-Dad shows up with the Pizza a bit late and a bit cold but no one complains because he brought a case of pringles.

Timmy's whole extended family take up most of the fire ring because who is not attracted by a nice campfire. The older boys clam up and stop telling the usual latest 'Dank Memes' jokes so they don't shock the visitors too much. The younger boys are happy because this is just like Cub Scouts.

In the morning the Troop wakes up to find most of Timmy's family tribe missing --they had tickets or something for Sunday--and Timmy is missing, we assume he went with one of his parents. Newbie and his best friend are packing up early --he is in junior rowing crew and they practice Sundays, too--and going with Mom. After all nothing else much is going on this morning and why do they have to return to the scout hut when it would save time for everyone to drive directly home!

What is left of Dragon Patrol ends up packing up almost the entire load of Troop gear. They consider throwing out their old unused food until they realize they better cook something for Cooking Merit Badge. Hot dogs will be easy!

Old Scouter the Scoutmaster sighs a heavy sigh...he may never get used to this new fangled Family Camping. Thank Heaven for Scout Juice! He knows attendance is going to be down the next week as the older kids drift away but figures he might be able to outlast Newbie's Mom and Timmy/Tammy's extended family as those kids never stick around much after First Class. 

Oh man, this would be funny if it didn't hit close to home. We had one camp out with an extremely similar scenario. We were at the local scout camp and had several families show up. It wasn't suppose to be a family camp out, but it turned into one. Between that camp out and the Tiger and his family camping at camporee with older brother, I've seen the frustration with the older Scouts. When I mentioned about the families causing problems,  I was told the troop "needs to be family friendly." I know my sons and one of their friends were not interested in this month's camp out because it was another "family " one since it was in conjunction with the joint pack-troop fundraiser. They rather go backpacking the following week.

 

[NJCubScouter]

2 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

So you think that there's no relationship between a youth organization for boys offering a pink, girls t-shirt through their supply shop and their subsequent move to allow girls is unrelated?  Riiiight.

BSA has history of this slight-of-hand behavior, as well as their ambiguous (read:disingenuous) communication style.

You can choose to believe what you like, but you're sticking your head in the sand on this one.

We're talking about parents here, not girls.  We have at least 100 recent threads about girls.  Ok, it's probably only about 10-12, but that's still a lot.

As for the Great Pink T-shirt Conspiracy, my response is probably the same as it was a couple of months ago when you brought up the exact same point.  (Though wasn't the shirt purple then?  Maybe it was both, like tie-dye.)  Maybe you're right, they added a pink t-shirt to their catalog because they already knew they were going to have more girls in the BSA.  Or maybe they started selling a pink t-shirt because they thought they could make money from a pink t-shirt.  See, I'm at least as cynical as you are, but my cynicism leads me to the conclusion that virtually everything that National does (at least, everything they do on purpose) is about money. Or to put it another way, sometimes a t-shirt is just a t-shirt.

If your point is that the BSA doesn't communicate very well with its volunteers, and sometimes acts in a misleading manner, it is not that am too naive to see it, it's that I am too jaded to be surprised by it or (usually) get upset about it.  I've gotten used to it.

Edited December 1, 2017 by NJCubScouter