"Boy lead" Programs - Presentations?

[Stosh]

For many years, sandlot neighborhood pickup games of scouting did really well.  You are right @blw2, someone changed the game.

[Eagledad]

in the big scheme of things, not much at all!  That I think it a major problem....

 

what I was getting at

....& I suppose it may have been poorly written...was not to be critical of you or your experience....just to say that any time the patrol selections are set from outside the natural boy-group, it's not the pure "gang" of friends that purely and simply chose to be.  By the time the 1970's rolled around, things were well underway into the big ship of rules and procedures that we call the BSA.  That's all I was getting at.  It's a far cry from the group of neighborhood guys that were friends already, choosing collectively to play this game of scouting.

Not so unlike how little league baseball might differ quite a lot from sandlot neighborhood pickup games.....

You have a very limited view of natural boy groups. How many times does a boy change groups a year? We know they change the gang  of sport teams and school classes every year. Nobody seems upset about new classes and new teams. But join the boys scouts and all of sudden the gang is critical. If a team player only needs a few practices to become part of the team, why wouldn't a scout only need a few patrol meetings? Well the answer is they do.

 

What is a natural boy group? It's simply a group of boys who want to belong in that group. Why adults think that can't happen in mixed age groups is mystery. Our families know before they join how our program works. The only time I can remember a family not happy is the one Webelos who was bullied by the rest of his den. His dad told me that his son would join our troop if none of his den mates were in his patrol. Not all gang members like the gang. I learned later is was three boys who were the bullies and they didn't last a year in our troop.

 

Anyway, I like to get to the root of issues. We parents don't really care about who our son friends are so long as he is happy. At least in the context of this discussion. Remember they make new friends just about every year at the start of a new school year. No big deal, right. I found over the years that the average boy who joined our troop only wanted one friend, sometimes two, to be happy in the gang... patrol. And, they generally felt comfortable after three meetings. All our new scouts were told they could start their own patrol if they wanted, but it never happened. After watching a functioning patrol for a few weeks, they realize starting a new patrol is a lot more work than joining a functioning one.

 

By the way, Webelos didn't join troops as dens like they do today. Boys joined as their age and requirements qualified them to join. Troops didn't have NSPs back then because they didn't get large enough groups. So boys were mixed into the patrols through the year. The NSP was created to work the problem of loosing so many first year scouts. But after 20 years with the NSP program, the percentage of first years losses are the same as before. Hmm, so maybe the gang thing wasn't the big problem. What is the problem. Well that is what MattR was addressing in his post of scouts not in the habit of making decisions.

 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

All,

I hope this is the correct forum, as I interpret Boy-lead as a result of an effective patrol method implementation.

 

I really want to come up with a presentation to explain what a "boy-lead" program should look like and the purpose for doing so.

 

Our troop has some new parents and some of those "hands-on" parents that always seem to "help out" with camping trips.

 

My question to the group is:

Are there any presentations (like from BSA, etc) that have already been devised? 

 

I don't mind putting together something, but don't want to re-invent the wheel if it's already out there.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance,

 

YiS,

 

Kevin Kirwan

Troop 713 - ASM

Wood Badge 92-88

 

Youth leadership is one aspect of the Patrol Method. 

 

Those at national who have misplaced the Patrol Method often speak of the "boy-led troop" as if it was a method.  In fact, one BSA web article says, from the shallow of the author's profundity, that "Patrols are one component of what we call youth-run, or youth-led, troop.  ["We"] ??? is totally incorrect. - backwards.

 

Many, if not most, adult-led troops are divided into patrols for administrative purposes, a practice that produces something that is not a Boy Scout Troop.  Of course, these "patrols" are not involved in the Patrol method as the adult-run troops do not 1) have the Scouts spend most of their time in a patrol context; 2) allow the patrols to be teams of Scouts who plan their own independent program led by the leaders they want; 3) allow the minority of time spent in a troop context to be planned by the PLC and led by the PLs and SPL; or 4) display the adult in his proper role as a coach, mentor, resources, and safety officer, NOT a direct leader.

[blw2]

You have a very limited view of natural boy groups. 

I'll let that one go with just a 

 

 

.....How many times does a boy change groups a year? We know they change the gang  of sport teams and school classes every year. Nobody seems upset about new classes and new teams. But join the boys scouts and all of sudden the gang is critical. If a team player only needs a few practices to become part of the team, why wouldn't a scout only need a few patrol meetings? Well the answer is they do.

....well, for starters... you are right.  Nothing wrong with changing classes, or changing teams.  They can do it, sure no problem... but that aint the point here'  We're talking scouts, and I'm referring to the basic 'original' concept of it (as I understand it).... not talking about classes and school.  Most boys don't like school, and those that do don't come to scouts to get more of it....  We wouldn't want to make scouting into school classes, because it seems like that could really hurt in a lot of ways.....oh, wait...  . that already happened.

 

Seriously though, the only reason I'm making the "gang" concept "critical" is because it was a fundamental principal that baden powel used in formulating this whole game of scouting using a patrol method.  I guess that's only just a little tiny reason I suppose....

 

 

What is a natural boy group? It's simply a group of boys who want to belong in that group.

"want to" being a key point in my thinking.

I personally don't for a second think that it can't happen in mixed ages.  Of course it can.  The bigger point is that age is not even a variable to be considered, in my opinion.....it's the "want to".

Now usually, the age range will be rather narrow.... plus or minus 1 grade typically in my observations, so maybe 3 years or so in age....

 

 

...... Remember they make new friends just about every year at the start of a new school year. No big deal, right. 

uh, yeah.... I'm not so sure about that being such a firm absolute.  Acquaintances sure, friends not always.....

 

..... I found over the years that the average boy who joined our troop only wanted one friend, sometimes two, to be happy in the gang... patrol. And, they generally felt comfortable after three meetings. All our new scouts were told they could start their own patrol if they wanted, but it never happened. After watching a functioning patrol for a few weeks, they realize starting a new patrol is a lot more work than joining a functioning one.

 

By the way, Webelos didn't join troops as dens like they do today. Boys joined as their age and requirements qualified them to join. Troops didn't have NSPs back then because they didn't get large enough groups. So boys were mixed into the patrols through the year. The NSP was created to work the problem of loosing so many first year scouts. But after 20 years with the NSP program, the percentage of first years losses are the same as before. Hmm, so maybe the gang thing wasn't the big problem. What is the problem. Well that is what MattR was addressing in his post of scouts not in the habit of making decisions.

 

Barry

 

Now here I agree with you.  One or two friends, sure...all is good.

Start to feel comfortable after a few meetings.....ok, sure....

Joining a functioning patrol....sure good, but they probably want that one or two friends in order to feel comfortable

but fostering really solid patrol pride/spirit.... well that takes time together.  Shuffle them apart every now and then, well they start over....or more likely don't even try.

 

Don't get me wrong here....I'm not trying to foster the "NSP" idea.  No, not at all.

Personally, I like the idea of "patrol".  Not forced, not aged, not anything....just "patrol"

If that patrol happens to be made up of mostly or totally newer scouts, so be it.  That one might just have to be groomed along a bit differently by the other scouts in the troop.

[Eagledad]

Now here I agree with you.  One or two friends, sure...all is good.

Start to feel comfortable after a few meetings.....ok, sure....

Joining a functioning patrol....sure good, but they probably want that one or two friends in order to feel comfortable

but fostering really solid patrol pride/spirit.... well that takes time together.  Shuffle them apart every now and then, well they start over....or more likely don't even try.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking about this subject the other day. We often read Wood Badgers say "I used to be a Bob White (or whatever critter), a good ol Bob White to". Wood Badgers always feel a special connection with their Wood Badge patrol. So why wouldn't scouts feel the same? Well. they do.  As a youth, I was a Flaming Arrow. Nothing else, just a Flaming Arrow. It was a great patrol and I'm quite proud of being a part it.

 

I have never understood reshuffling patrols. It defeats the purpose of what we are trying to accomplish with the patrol method. I guess you have experienced it, so you are sensitive to it. But it is a foreign concept to me.

 

Barry

Edited November 13, 2017 by Eagledad

[TAHAWK]

“In a Troop in which the boys are shuffled together at frequent intervals and dealt out into new Patrols according to the whim of the Scoutmaster, there obviously can be little opportunity for the development of Patrol morale and Patrol traditions.â€

 

                   Hillcourt, William, The Patrol Method, B.S.A. (1930) at p. 10.

 

[Stosh]

10 up arrows for TAHAWK!

[Tampa Turtle]

TAHAWK, that was golden. I have seen that happen over and over. Adults mucking up the boys natural desire for self assembly and determination by 'improving' the program and then wondering why the scouts are not more engaged.

[Stosh]

Or why they have to deal with so much discipline from the boys acting up.

 

Or why the boys "don't listen" to their leaders.

 

And the list goes on.

 

Adults, quit messing with the Patrol Method, it will work.  NO! It will NOT turn into "Lord of the Flies".  And when all is said and done, when things go south, the boys fix it on their own.  And when things don't go according to the way the boys want it, one never gets accused of being the bad guy.

[Tampa Turtle]

I think what some adults REALLY want is "Boy Managed"; we tell them what we want and how we want it, all spiffy and expertly carried out like some kind of prep squad junior grade military unit and have them just do it. 

[TAHAWK]

"Corporal," have the squad line up."

[blw2]

 

“In a Troop in which the boys are shuffled together at frequent intervals and dealt out into new Patrols according to the whim of the Scoutmaster, there obviously can be little opportunity for the development of Patrol morale and Patrol traditions.â€

 

                   Hillcourt, William, The Patrol Method, B.S.A. (1930) at p. 10.

 

 

in our case, it was fuzzier than that.  Not really the whim of the scoutmaster, exactly.

like with a lot of things, "the boys decided"

but I would contend that yeah, they might have come up with the idea, or otherwise decided.....but often it was at the steerage of the adult(s)....sometime that even happens almost subconsciously, with the adult not really intending it, but the little hints and nudges can be an influence no doubt

[Stosh]

"Corporal," have the squad line up."

 

The older scout literature used to refer to the PL as "Corporal".  I'm sure that dropped when it portrayed the image of Scouting as too militaristic.  After all a Scout, patrol, troop, etc. by definition are military terms.  Kinda hard to get around that.

[Eagledad]

in our case, it was fuzzier than that.  Not really the whim of the scoutmaster, exactly.

like with a lot of things, "the boys decided"

but I would contend that yeah, they might have come up with the idea, or otherwise decided.....but often it was at the steerage of the adult(s)....sometime that even happens almost subconsciously, with the adult not really intending it, but the little hints and nudges can be an influence no doubt

Little hints and nudges are very powerful.  

 

But let's assume for a moment the scouts did come up with the idea on their own. Should a SM who doesn't agree with shuffling get involved with the scouts' decision? Why or why not?

 

Barry

[blw2]

great question. 

   I'd say perhaps.

 

I can think of an example of a time, not related to patrol assignments, but instead the patrol name.  Still an example that shows similar idea.

 

The scouts voted on patrol name, but instead of trying to find consensus, the majority ruled...lead by a very overbearing scout.  So the patrol had a name and a patch, that not quite half of the scouts did not want to sew on their uniforms.

 

In defense of the scouts, they did not even know the meaning of the word consensus. 

 

That, in my opinion, is an example where a SM can earn his pay with some gentle nudging and coaching BEFORE something like that gets set in stone.....to head of that win/loose with a win/win instead