Ideas for better camporees

[Hawkwin]

Maybe it's time to start having the boys plan the camporees instead of the adults...

 

What it boils down to is I don't know what the boys want to really do, and no one else does except the boys.  Start with them, go with them, end with them.  It's their program.

 

 

 

This! I think the best thing you could do would be to let the Troops, on some sort of random rotation, plan each Camporee. The next one is probably too close for them to plan (and maybe even the one after that) but I would grant/gift this responsibility and authority to the Troops. All of our local Camporees are sponsored by Troops. I don't know if that sponsorship means that they plan everything or just a little bit but I think some of your best and certainly your highest conviction ideas will come from the Troops themselves.

[MattR]

Your district doesn’t have a first aid rally?

How about a disaster recovery theme? As a scout I did first aid rallies but they were in a gym

[MattR]

In Scouts I originally liked camporees for the competition. By 15 I wanted something more laid back and fun. When I got to Venturing I really es like their rendezvous format. It’s like a camporee but your crew chooses which events they want. You get your choice of 5-6 events but there’s like 10-15 to choose from. There at no ribbons or prizes, just inter crew head to head competition for bragging rights. I would have really liked this in Boy Scouts.

 

What types of challenges did they have?

 

My scouts always wanted balance. They liked competitions against other patrols but not against a clock. What you're calling head to head. They also liked personal challenges. They also wanted free time.

[perdidochas]

I'm splitting off from the other thread about camporees counting as campouts because this really is a different topic.

 

It turns out I'm likely going to be the new district camping chair which means I get to come up with 3 good campouts a year - Klondike, spring, and fall camporees, so your help is appreciated.

 

It seems there are a couple of issues.

1. Interesting and new events.
2. Making events a challenge that don't turn into some troop overloading patrols.
3. Limited resources so, for example, doing shot gun at a camporee would be hard.
4. Getting some scouts involved in helping with this.

Our current camporees all tend to follow the same recipe - a dozen or so events, all of which take about 10 minutes each. The feedback I always got as SM was that the scouts preferred events that were at least an hour. This means the event should be able to handle a lot of scouts, like 8 patrols at a time.

 

As for competitions that aren't loaded, what if there were categories, such as take the average age of everyone in the patrol?

 

I was going to go to some troops and see if any older scouts were interested in helping at least decided on the events. It could be a way for older scouts to find something important and challenging.

 

Anyway, ideas are welcome.

We let different troops or the OA volunteer to run Camporees. We have the adults just doing logistics, and have the boys create/run the events.  

[MattR]

EagleDad and Col. Flagg, you both bring up important ideas. Competition is good if it doesn't turn into a blood doping win at all cost event. the phrase honest competition is good. I can see how events that can be practiced and perfected can be a problem. I've seen knot tying competitions where you have to learn a few tricks and you suddenly blow the competition away. Rather, if the general skills needed are given out and the actual challenge is not known until you show up, I'd think that would help. There will be an orienteering course (I like the night time version. That will show up in the fall.)

 

Stacking patrols is a problem.  I would certainly like to promote patrol method but I'm talking about patrols that have been around for a year, not just the last meeting. or that morning. How do you encourage that? Check to see if the patrol all has the same patrol patch?

 

The discussion about whether the scouts or adults should organize the camporee is the wrong discussion. It's just like organizing troop events. It's an opportunity for scouts to lead and also an opportunity to get them interested. If I find some scouts that really have some ideas then I'm going to support them. But I do need to set some boundaries and also help them out. There also needs to be some reality checks. If they say they want to go kayaking and we don't have enough for everyone then there's a problem that has to be solved.

[qwazse]

Stacked patrols: At a certain point, a scout is trustworthy.

But, yes, it would be nice to have a quick uniform inspection with a large number of points going to patrols who present with flag, patches, and yells. Emphasis on the "quick". You're not looking for alignment of each insignia, but rather to see if these guys look sharp at first glance. Maybe, part of the competition could be to let the scouts who look sharp get started. Those whose members aren't wearing a patrol patch might have to go to a "craft area" and bang out copies before they can leave. If the yell sounds weak/disorganized, they have to come back in 5 minutes with a solid yell before starting.

 

I agree with the reality checks. But, I've seen situations where guys have lined up solid plans and somewhere along the way enthusiasm for it fizzled. Maybe it's a problem that can't be fixed even if you are a cheerleader for those particular guys. But, you really have to take on that role if you want the idea mill to keep popping two years down the road.

[Stosh]

How many camporees register troops and how many register patrols?  Then how many troops camp together and how many patrols are spread out among the other patrols (it's a real buzz kill for those units that rely on troop trailers and troop meals.  Also, when the troops with mixed age patrols try and reorganize into ringer patrols the morning of the camporee for the competitions, it makes the task a bit more difficult and obvious to everyone.

 

We all talk about the units being boy-led, shouldn't the districts be the one in the lead promoting it?

[Col. Flagg]

EagleDad and Col. Flagg, you both bring up important ideas. Competition is good if it doesn't turn into a blood doping win at all cost event. the phrase honest competition is good. I can see how events that can be practiced and perfected can be a problem. 

 

We've also been to Venturing events where the competition was either with one's self or with their crew. Skeet comes to mind. One of our guys is a competitive shooter. Even as a Scout he didn't compete with his patrol. The kid simply never missed and HE was the one who said it wasn't fair.

 

Competition is only good when everyone is playing by the same rules. Our unit ran camporee one year. The boys came up with the idea to provide all the gear needed to run an "event", including the directions AND to have "expert" advisors to help the units set up their event. The trick was, no one got their event until the SPL meeting at 10pm that Friday night. Each unit started from scratch. They had to be at their program area at 8am and had two hours to set up. Once up, they opened for competition from all patrols...which had to be the assigned patrols that each troop normally registers. Each PL was asked to give on his Scout Oath that this was his "normal" patrol.

 

This worked GREAT...for the small and medium-sized troops. The large troops -- the ones who always won and practiced months beforehand...hated it. Reason? They said they were "understaffed" and could not work under such tight deadlines. Yet some how the 25 person troop ran a complete pioneering competition, while a mega troop (that prided itself on being THE canoeing troop) couldn't manage to set up a canoe race (anchored milk jugs, floating docks for life guards and other stuff was already set up).

 

Needless to say, the mega troops complained. And since they run the district this format was tossed out. The very next year they went back to the "old" format. Out of 25 troops only 6 went....the "Big Six". We went to canoeing instead.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[Eagle94-A1]

Ah ringer patrols. True story, we had one troop put all their older Scouts, specifically all the ones who went to Philmont that summer into a single patrol. It was quite humorous in that they didn't do to well, and were in fact the lower half of the patrols. That was a few years back.

 

Closest we had to a ringer this year was a combined patrol. Long story short, one patrol had the bare minimum to compete, 4 Scouts, and the other patrol had only 3. They merged into a 7 man patrol for the weekend. Last year one of the two merged patrols was 2nd overall while the other patrol was in the top 5 overall. I think think they turned in their orienteering scorecard without their name on it, and lost a bunch of points as a result. If the score sheet I think was theirs was indeed theirs, they would have been second or third overall, instead of the top 10.

[Eagledad]

Stacking patrols is a problem.  I would certainly like to promote patrol method but I'm talking about patrols that have been around for a year, not just the last meeting. or that morning. How do you encourage that? Check to see if the patrol all has the same patrol patch?

 

 

I don't know what stacking a patrol means in this day and age because of aged based patrols. Mixed age patrols are better for competition because they balance the different levels and ages of skills in each patrol. Same age patrols struggle because younger scout patrols don't have the maturity of skills and experience of older scouts. Older scout patrols are stacked simply by default because of the program design, not because they are trying to gain some advantage.

 

So, I guess the simple answer is create competition patrols just to have a better chance. Our district started dumbing down competition so younger scouts had a better chance. But that led to older scout skipping camporees altogether. So, demonstration camporees started becoming more fashionable, but that hasn't brought back the older scouts. 

 

 

 

The discussion about whether the scouts or adults should organize the camporee is the wrong discussion. It's just like organizing troop events. It's an opportunity for scouts to lead and also an opportunity to get them interested. If I find some scouts that really have some ideas then I'm going to support them. But I do need to set some boundaries and also help them out. There also needs to be some reality checks. If they say they want to go kayaking and we don't have enough for everyone then there's a problem that has to be solved.

Other than trooporees, I have never seen the scouts of a troop get very involved in organizing a camporee. The trooporee we organized for four troops required our scouts total dedication for six months. Our scouts grew a lot in character and leadership, but I wouldn't do it again because it was such a disruption of our program.

 

The logistics of running a camporee are enormous and require a lot of communication and planning. I can honestly say our scouts planned and ran our trooporee of 200 scouts, but it wasn't without A LOT of help from adults who gave a lot of their time. Without direction from either a well organized Crew or OA, I can't see how a boy run camporee could get done. Not at a scale for a district anyways.

 

My advice is pick an interesting theme and then plan from there. Don't ask the scouts t design the plan, but instead ask them for suggestions of the plan. Otherwise you will get bogged down in just the theme because just trying to get number of scouts to your meetings will be challenging. Try to use district meeting where SMs go so they bring their scouts with them.

 

There are some really good camporee themes on the internet. Competition should certainly be within first class scout skills, but in my day, the difference of skills between the men and boys were the bonus points at each event. Bonus points can be created any number of ways. But for example, what knot would be used to tie ropes together for a rescue? They may have just tied the knot, but did they know which knot is used for specific applications.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

The only really fair competition is based on an individual's skill level.  Varsity football players do not compete with middle school teams.

 

The competitions need to be a legitimate playing field.  Scouts vs. Scouts, TF vs. TF, 2C vs. 2C, etc and each boy gets a score.  Then the scores are weighted for the patrol.  Scouts get an extra 7 points, TF 6, 2C 5, etc.  Then those who have less than 8 boys get extra points for them.  That way the smaller patrols get weighted points.  Patrols over 8 boys get deductions for having too many, those scores are weighted too.  If they leave out a Scout, -7 points, TF, -6 points, etc.

 

A simple spreadsheet could handle this scoring process rather quickly.  This way less experienced scouts in a small patrol will receive the most bonus points.

 

Otherwise, live with the ringers and leave fairness out of the equation.  The boys quickly figure out the games rigged and then they quit.  The only ones that really enjoy the rigged games are the ringer patrols that win all the prizes at the campfires and then the adults start wondering why no one shows up for camporees.

 

I have been told our district camporees have 3-4 troops when the camporees are held.

[ItsBrian]

How about a disaster recovery theme? As a scout I did first aid rallies but they were in a gym

Ooo make a weekend EPrep/First Aid themed camporee. Each troop or patrol gets a message, text, call, walkie talkie, whatever and have to respond like a real emergency.

 

They would be scored and all, basically the day as EMS.

[MattR]

Our district started dumbing down competition so younger scouts had a better chance. But that led to older scout skipping camporees altogether. So, demonstration camporees started becoming more fashionable, but that hasn't brought back the older scouts. 

 

My advice is pick an interesting theme and then plan from there. Don't ask the scouts t design the plan, but instead ask them for suggestions of the plan. Otherwise you will get bogged down in just the theme because just trying to get number of scouts to your meetings will be challenging. Try to use district meeting where SMs go so they bring their scouts with them.

 

interesting comment about dumbing down the competition. I can see that setting up a tent blind folded when you're 17 is not going to be very cool. Maybe a couple of levels so each patrol can be challenged based on its makeup. That might encourage the younger scouts to look forward to harder stuff later on.

 

As for the next part, I'll be happy if I can get some scouts to give input as to what they'd like to do. If I can get them to have their troops organize a small part then that's a bonus. If the idea really catches on and some scouts want to form a venture crew that runs these things then ka ching!

 

The competitions need to be a legitimate playing field.  Scouts vs. Scouts, TF vs. TF, 2C vs. 2C, etc and each boy gets a score.  Then the scores are weighted for the patrol.  Scouts get an extra 7 points, TF 6, 2C 5, etc.  Then those who have less than 8 boys get extra points for them.  That way the smaller patrols get weighted points.  Patrols over 8 boys get deductions for having too many, those scores are weighted too.  If they leave out a Scout, -7 points, TF, -6 points, etc.

 

So, give the scouts a handicap.

[Stosh]

That'll work too. 

 

Younger boys have all the first aid equipment handy, the older boys no equipment, make do with what they have on them.

 

Younger boys get all the matches they want, older boys, no matches...now make a fire.

 

Yep, I like the idea.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Stosh

[Eagledad]

 

Otherwise, live with the ringers and leave fairness out of the equation.  The boys quickly figure out the games rigged and then they quit.  The only ones that really enjoy the rigged games are the ringer patrols that win all the prizes at the campfires and then the adults start wondering why no one shows up for camporees.

 

You missed your calling stosh, you could have made millions as a motivational speaker.

 

Your solutions for a fair camporee are anti patrol method, or anti Greenbar bill patrol style. So in my mind, what's the point?

 

The games aren't rigged, it's just that camporee style competition that was created during the mixed age patrol program doesn't fit for the same age patrol system of todays troop program. Camporees were started when patrols were balanced with different ages. If the participants were honest, the patrol competitions were not only fair, but very productive in developing character growth. 

 

MattR is pretty smart, so I expect he has the solutions and will provide us with the details of a successful camporee. But, I do respect his challenges.

 

Barry