Need help getting 15 yr old to complete 2nd Class rank swim requirement

[Stosh]

This is a skill taught every year the boys have their winter Klondike. 

[clemlaw]

 A boy can swim only if he's in a pool and can wear ear plugs, goggles and nose pinches?  Does that really make him a swimmer?  What happens when the catamaran tips over in the lake and he gets dumped?  

 

The original question wasn't about the swimmer test.  It was about the beginner's test.  And if I recall correctly, I don't think the beginner's test gives him any more boating privileges than if he were a non-swimmer.

 

Personally, I think that any kind of a mask is a hindrance to swimming.  But if some kid thinks he needs a mask to take the test to advance to "beginner," then I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Learning to swim is the most important thing, and he's going to be able to do that only after he becomes a beginner.  Whether or not he advances past Tenderfoot, at some point in his life, he's going to be on a boat, walk on a dock, or be in some position where he might unexpectedly find himself in the water.  And the way that scouting will help him is by teaching him how to swim.  

 

As a practical matter, the BSA beginner test means that he'll be able to go out in 3 feet of water, rather than water up to his knees with the non-swimmers.  And he'll have a lot more opportunities to learn how to swim if he has access to the 3 foot deep water.  Again, I would encourage him to take off the goggles.  But if that's what it takes to get him out in the 3-foot section, then I would make it happen.

 

(I should add that at our council camps, the staff are very zealous that to go into the "beginner" section, you're not allowed to touch the rope, and you have to get your head wet and swim under the rope.  They won't even let old codgers like me get away with lifting the rope.  So if he's going to make use of his new "beginner" privileges, he's going to have to get his head wet anyway, which means that the problem is self-correcting.  After a couple of times of putting on his mask just to go under the rope, he'll discover that it's a lot easier just to hold his breath and do it.)

Edited November 11, 2017 by clemlaw

[Stosh]

 I find it difficult to understand the rationale of jumping into the water over one's head and swimming any distance when all one is going to do is wade around in 3' of water in the first place.

 

Theoretically a boy could wade out into the water, swim a half mile out into the lake, and return and because he didn't jump in, not pass the BSA swim test. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Stosh

[MattR]

You know what scares me?  Falling through the ice. That's very dangerous, and to my knowledge, there's nothing in Scouting that really covers surviving that kind of accident. Scouting can't be everything.  It's a foundation and a beginning.

 

They used to cover this because I remember learning how to do an ice rescue. Ladders, poles, measuring depth of ice, making human chains. It was good.

 

 

This is a skill taught every year the boys have their winter Klondike. 

Our ice, at klondike, is thick enough to drive trucks on it. But, seeing as how I'm organizing Klondike this year, thanks for the idea!

[qwazse]

@clemlaw, I'm think stosh was using 'swimmer' in the general sense of the word.

 

Reiterating my bottom line: Second Class means to me that I can count on you to jump in and swim those 10 yards to safety when the "Dark Day" comes. That day could come with a boat fire, a dock fail, slipping on a rock, getting swept up by a wave or rip tide ... it's a very long list of scenarios.

 

Is a pool sufficient? My kids were either in Lake Erie, on the Indian River, or in the Atlantic Ocean.

I learned to swim in a pool (and in the Monongahela River and some ponds rife with Snapping Turtles sometimes), which was sufficient on Lake Erie on a flat-as-glass day. The first time I was smacked in the face by a 3 foot white-capped roller, it became quite clear that I would have to relearn what I was taught. Minor tweaks. But, I was 100 percent sure that I could adapt to the added chaos - and later, the salt water.

For my kids, the pool was nice to teach, but the lake on a really wavy day (with whitecaps) was what really determined that they were either beginners or swimmers or snorklers. (None ever really became guards, but the knew how to rescue with durable support.) But, what made me sure that they could get to the level that they needed to be in the environment they were handed? When they stood at the edge of the pool with just themselves (in their swimsuit, of course), jumped in, and covered the distance to the other side.

 

SO let me be clear. This is no mere requirement for rank. This is us telling a boy he's ready to face his next aquatic challenge. If there's any inkling that the scout is seeing it as the last time he will ever swim, then he has demonstrated that he is an ender, not a beginner. Enders are not second class scouts.

[Stosh]

When I was a kid (oh yeah, here it comes) I started in a pool, shallow end, putting my face in the water and blowing bubbles.  No goggles, no ear plugs, no face mask, just bubbles.  By the time I was in scouts I had progressed through the ranks to facing the mile swim for life-guard certification.  My mom said to me, be careful of what you wish for.  If you have that certification, you'll be on the dock and everyone else in the water.  I swam 10' short of a mile.  The instructors were irate, but I knew I could do it.  One of the instructors wanted to give me certification anyway, but I refused.

 

So time passes.  I camp, I swim, I hunt, I fish, I'm outdoors in the woods, near the water, and on the water.  I spend as much time outdoors as I do in.  Well, almost.    The point being, there were many times I was super, totally thankful for my parents pushing the swimming.  Canadian Lake, calm in the morning, storm comes up and 2-3' waves by evening, small motor boat and it's getting towards dusk.  I sidled my way about 4 miles across the lake with life jacket on, sitting on a float cushion,  2 others in the boat with me Dad and brother..  I got everyone home, but the only thing I could think of if we swamped, no one was going to come looking for us.  The only reason we tried the crossing was because my brother was as good a swimmer as I and Dad was Navy (WW II).  Otherwise, if it had been non-swimmers or even good marginal swimmers, I wouldn't have made the attempt. 

 

BWCA, overloaded canoes, 3 people and gear in each canoe.  Big lake ahead, whitecaps, wind directly in front.  Not today, I don't know if everyone in the party can make it without swamping and 100 yards off shore would be a major swim in the waves even with life jacket.

 

So fast forward to today.  Camp tests the boys and gives them a little circle of paper to say if they can "swim" or not.  Docks a temptation, rowboats, canoes, sail boats and kayaks already to go.  Every precaution is taken and we send out the boys with the MINIMUM amount of expectation when it comes to swimming.  Over the years nothing major has happened around me and that's okay with me.  Am I overly cautious?  Yep.  I practice what I preach, I take care of my boys.  Do I take them whitewater canoeing?  Yep, but I have at least two other expert swimmers/kayakers going along with me.  Do all three carry rescue lines on their kayaks?  Yep, Do I carry a sheath knife to cut tangled lines?  Yep, do I carry block and tackle to pull watercraft out of snags?  Yep, do I carry a belt ax capable of cutting a hole in any of the craft on the trek?  Yep.

 

And here I sit on the forum listening to whether or not someone jumping into the water is going to do so with or without googles.  In the grand scheme of life, is that check box all that important?  Presently I have 5 boys in my troop, 3 are swimmers 2 are not.  We do not plan any aquatic adventures at this point in time.  As an adult, yes, for the record I do pull rank on my PL's on safety issues.  Goggles are not a safety issue.

[TAHAWK]

@clemlaw, I'm think stosh was using 'swimmer' in the general sense of the word.

 

Reiterating my bottom line: Second Class means to me that I can count on you to jump in and swim those 10 yards to safety when the "Dark Day" comes. That day could come with a boat fire, a dock fail, slipping on a rock, getting swept up by a wave or rip tide ... it's a very long list of scenarios.

 

Is a pool sufficient? My kids were either in Lake Erie, on the Indian River, or in the Atlantic Ocean.

I learned to swim in a pool (and in the Monongahela River and some ponds rife with Snapping Turtles sometimes), which was sufficient on Lake Erie on a flat-as-glass day. The first time I was smacked in the face by a 3 foot white-capped roller, it became quite clear that I would have to relearn what I was taught. Minor tweaks. But, I was 100 percent sure that I could adapt to the added chaos - and later, the salt water.

For my kids, the pool was nice to teach, but the lake on a really wavy day (with whitecaps) was what really determined that they were either beginners or swimmers or snorklers. (None ever really became guards, but the knew how to rescue with durable support.) But, what made me sure that they could get to the level that they needed to be in the environment they were handed? When they stood at the edge of the pool with just themselves (in their swimsuit, of course), jumped in, and covered the distance to the other side.

 

SO let me be clear. This is no mere requirement for rank. This is us telling a boy he's ready to face his next aquatic challenge. If there's any inkling that the scout is seeing it as the last time he will ever swim, then he has demonstrated that he is an ender, not a beginner. Enders are not second class scouts.

I write as one who admittedly feels that rank advancements, on balance, has been made significantly easier.  How else to explain Eagles at 700% of the rate of the Golden Age? ("Only on in a hundred achieves the rank of Eagle Scout.")

 

All quoted above is fine so long as the Scout who passes the Boy Scout requirements for Second Class gets the Second Class badge.  Otherwise, we have Joe's Scouts, Tom's Scouts, or Bob's Scouts.  That might be a fine thing in itself, just not Boy Scouts (or whatever we're going to get called in the future.  "Scouts of America"?).

 

There are tools other than advancement to get a boy to the level we wish BSA required while still modeling the value of obedience to the rules of the game as they are actually written.  I have no doubt that the readers here could suggest dozens of ideas.  In a different skill area, the Knot Club did far more in T22 to have Scouts learn and retain rope work skills than all the advancement requirements combined.  

[David CO]

I learned to swim in a pool (and in the Monongahela River and some ponds rife with Snapping Turtles sometimes)

 

Is a titanium athletic cup considered a swimming aid?

[RememberSchiff]

These days, if I see a scout swimming with a coordinated swim stroke and breathing, smart money is that he/she learned as a swim team member or from a private tutor not the Red Cross and not Scouting.

 

Somehow the program became checking off the swim test and not learning how to swim. 

 

My $0.02

[Stosh]

Nope, I learned blowing bubbles to life-saving skills through the Red Cross.  Nothing in Scouting prepared me for the swim test.  Even at camp, if there are non-swimmers, they get 7 days "training" if they request it, but my recommendation is always to contact the YMCA for swim lessons.  I am always disheartened to see that with all the aquatic program and outdoor water activities, BSA does nothing to help the boy with the prerequisites.  The assume the boy can swim before he reaches Scouts and then tests to see if he can do enough to get a couple of rank advancement boxes checked.  Not a well thought out process in my opinion. 

 

By the way, last I heard the YMCA program IS the Red Cross program, same as Wilderness First Aid for BSA.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Stosh